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Old 19th May 2022, 6:04 pm   #1
novicerepairer
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Default Sony TA 3200F less loud?

Hi, I have just purchased a Sony TA3200F which I am using with a TA 1130 as a pre-amp.
On testing, I have found that unless the levels on the power amp are set to full, it is less loud at the same settings on the 1130 than if I use the 1130 on it’s own?
Being half the output power 2x50w ( the Ta3200f 2 x 100w) I was a bit surprised.
I bought the power amp hoping it would be a better match for my inefficient B&W speakers I have.
I would appreciate your thoughts and experience. Thanks,
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Old 19th May 2022, 6:10 pm   #2
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Default Re: Sony TA 3200F less loud?

You seem to be confusing gain with power handling. Going from 50W to 100W is only 3dB anyway.
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Old 19th May 2022, 6:44 pm   #3
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Default Re: Sony TA 3200F less loud?

According to the service manuals in Volt for Volt terms the pre-amp output for the TA-1130 is 1 Volt and the input to the TA-3200 is 1.4 Volts for its rated output.

Lawrence.
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Old 19th May 2022, 6:46 pm   #4
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Default Re: Sony TA 3200F less loud?

Thanks so much for such a quick and reassuring reply. I thought it might be my naivety.
I have also noticed there is a capacitor that is between the mains in and the ac power sockets that is rectangular but appears to have a circular swollen section on both sides. Would this be normal/safe to use, or possibly need replacement. Thanks again.
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Old 19th May 2022, 6:52 pm   #5
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Default Re: Sony TA 3200F less loud?

Thanks Lawrence, I can now just enjoy my new purchase, rather than my inexperience of electronics, making me think somethings up. And where My autistic trait of having the levels dead halfway, I might push the boat out and have them on 3/4 to compensate for the lower voltage. Thanks so much again.
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Old 19th May 2022, 6:53 pm   #6
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Default Re: Sony TA 3200F less loud?

It sounds like an X2 interference suppression capacitor. They do fail sometimes, often with a bit of smoke and sizzling, but this is very unlikely to cause a fire. You can replace it with a new X2 cap of the right value, which isn't critical anyway.
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Old 19th May 2022, 7:03 pm   #7
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Default Re: Sony TA 3200F less loud?

Quote:
Originally Posted by novicerepairer View Post
Thanks Lawrence, I can now just enjoy my new purchase, rather than my inexperience of electronics, making me think somethings up. And where My autistic trait of having the levels dead halfway, I might push the boat out and have them on 3/4 to compensate for the lower voltage. Thanks so much again.
No problem.

Suitable Sony units to drive the TA-3200F to it's rated output back in the day would have been the TA-2000, TA-1120A etc as per the owners manual here:

https://www.vintageshifi.com/reperto...ers-Manual.pdf

Lawrence.
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Old 19th May 2022, 7:14 pm   #8
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Default Re: Sony TA 3200F less loud?

Just turn the gain up. That's what the adjustment is for.
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Old 19th May 2022, 7:18 pm   #9
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Default Re: Sony TA 3200F less loud?

I was aware of the TA2000, but believe they are expensive. I take it no damage will occur using my 1130 ?
May I thank you both so much for the amazing service the site and you experts provide.
My Father and I, have always had a lifelong love of audio equipment. Unfortunately, he has now got severe dementia, but we have been selling some unused items of his and buying some of the superb 70’s units we could only dream about owning at the time.
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Old 19th May 2022, 7:48 pm   #10
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Default Re: Sony TA 3200F less loud?

The capacitor referred to earlier could be the snubber unit that's connected across the on/off switch contacts in the schematic, if so it should be replaced with something approaching like for like, the values in the schematic are 120 Ohm resistor in series with a 0.033uF capacitor.

Lawrence.
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Old 19th May 2022, 8:07 pm   #11
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Default Re: Sony TA 3200F less loud?

Yes, you need to consult the service info for the exact component required.

It's unclear that the changes you're making are going to result in a meaningful improvement to the sound you're hearing.

I'm sorry to learn of your father's illness.
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Old 19th May 2022, 9:06 pm   #12
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Default Re: Sony TA 3200F less loud?

Thanks for your sympathy regarding my Dad. I think with my lack of knowledge and skill I will leave alone, whilst it appears to be working roughly to spec. I was hoping that the extra size of the transformer and power would be an upgrade to the 1130, but I must admit in the very short play on some cheaper speakers I couldn’t hear much difference. Still adds to my little collection I suppose. Colin.
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Old 19th May 2022, 10:47 pm   #13
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Default Re: Sony TA 3200F less loud?

Quote:
Originally Posted by novicerepairer View Post
I was hoping that the extra size of the transformer and power would be an upgrade to the 1130, but I must admit in the very short play on some cheaper speakers I couldn’t hear much difference. Still adds to my little collection I suppose. Colin.
The human ear has a logarithmic sense of sound power. 2 Watts sounds just a bit louder than 1W. the difference of 4W over 2W seems the same as 1 to 2W did and so on... This seems like a bit of a swindle when going from 1000w TO 2000W seems to be that same increment again.

However, though the power increase may seem a bit of a disappointment, it will still sound louder.

The size of transformers and heatsinks etc make the amplifier capable of higher powers. This is not the same as always making that power.

An amplifier magnifies the input signal by a set amount (its 'gain') put in more signal and you get out more signal up to a point where it sort of hits the end stops... the output voltage swinging to limits set by the internal power supply DC voltages. the higher power amplifier has more voltage and current swing allowances before its end-stops.

So maybe you do need to turn up the volume knob a bit further, but the more powerful amplifier will let you do so and a bit further still.

Some amplifier manufacturers have been known to play psychological games to con their customers into thinking their amplifiers are more powerful than they really are. The usual trick is to make it have plenty of gain, so you only need to open the volume control a little and it hurts your ears. They make you think that it must be very powerful and make you imagine what it must be like near to the top of the control. Reality is disappointing, these amps run out of voltage swing far before the top of the volume control and start producing horrible distortion - but people don't use them up there, yet their natural assumptions make them think it's more powerful. Fraudulent mind gmes!

Some amplifiers play it honestly, and they do seem a lot less lively. You just have to understand what's going on and what the tricked ones are like in order to fully appreciate the honest and well-proportioned ones.

The human ear is quite easily fooled. Make your pressing of a well known record just a bit louder than the usual one and most people will think yours is of better quality.

The hifi world has been infested by confidence tricksters of all sorts. For a very long time.

David
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Old 20th May 2022, 7:31 am   #14
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Default Re: Sony TA 3200F less loud?

Thanks for such a informative reply, it is really useful for someone only just getting interested in what’s under the bonnet, to have an explanation that is understandable.

Being Mr indecisive I have decided to not use it, until I have the funds to have the snubber cap replaced, as I still do not feel confident enough to do myself.
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Old 20th May 2022, 10:39 am   #15
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Default Re: Sony TA 3200F less loud?

Info for anyone interested:

Here's a suitable replacement snubber:

https://uk.farnell.com/roxburgh/re12...-20/dp/2336107

Other suppliers are available.

Here's a link to the service manual:

https://www.vintageshifi.com/reperto...ice-Manual.pdf

The snubber is component ref. CP that's connected across the power switch in the schematic (2nd section of page 25 in the manual)

Lawrence.
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Old 20th May 2022, 4:10 pm   #16
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Default Re: Sony TA 3200F less loud?

Thanks so much Lawrence for the ground work. One of the problems for me was making sure I was getting the right replacement. Mr indecisive is thinking of giving it a bash now!!
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Old 20th May 2022, 4:20 pm   #17
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Default Re: Sony TA 3200F less loud?

No problem.

If access is ok, replacing the snubber should be straight forward, it doesn't matter which way round the snubber wires are connected.

Lawrence.
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Old 20th May 2022, 5:15 pm   #18
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Default Re: Sony TA 3200F less loud?

Thanks so much Lawrence, I will order one this weekend.
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Old 20th May 2022, 6:23 pm   #19
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Default Re: Sony TA 3200F less loud?

Snubber and mains filter capacitors are common in most equipment. The appearance of EMC rules in the 1980s saw them appear everywhere.

They have a limited life due to self-healing on transients on the mains. Even off power the types of capacitor used suffer cracking of the plastic casing and subsequent moisture ingress. The also make a hellish stink when they fail.

So learning how to replace them is a useful skill to acquire if you're using equipment several years old or more.

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Old 20th May 2022, 8:26 pm   #20
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Default Re: Sony TA 3200F less loud?

I am hopefully trying to show a photo of the capacitor to show the condition of it, but am a bit confused where the resistor that is that is meant to be in parallel is? I do not seem to have one?
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