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Old 13th Apr 2021, 3:14 pm   #21
Graham G3ZVT
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Default Re: Use of CT in morse?

SK is still in amateur use and is often written as VA, I wonder if one style is American parlance, it's academic really, the prosign is the same.

SK ir just SK is also an alternative to RIP in obituaries, which is quite fitting. (End of working. Silent Key.)

This seems an ideal thread to try out the custom BB code that Paul added to the forum last month.

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=177171
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Old 13th Apr 2021, 3:19 pm   #22
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Default Re: Use of CT in morse?

"the morse code for radio amateurs" 1977 edition says:-

Quote:
_._._ Commencing signal (to precede every transmission)
I assumed it was to wake up a sleepy operator. Listening to silence for long periods must have been boring.
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Old 13th Apr 2021, 5:17 pm   #23
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Default Re: Use of CT in morse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Station X View Post
"the morse code for radio amateurs" 1977 edition says:-

Quote:
_._._ Commencing signal (to precede every transmission)
I assumed it was to wake up a sleepy operator. Listening to silence for long periods must have been boring.
Yes, and the iambic rhythm is ideal for synchronising your wrist muscles with the Vibroplex key. (Other sideswipers are available)
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Old 13th Apr 2021, 9:44 pm   #24
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Default Re: Use of CT in morse?

Quote:
I assumed it was to wake up a sleepy operator.
Often found that the operator didn't need a wake-up call. How many times have you been sitting there, feet up on the desk reading a lurid novel with the cacophony of 5 ton from the English Channel in your headset, when suddenly you perk up - someone sent my callsign! There must be a small portion of brain filtering all that noise and just picking out the call - how does it do that?
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Old 14th Apr 2021, 8:21 am   #25
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Default Re: Use of CT in morse?

G'day everyone.

I am old school.
I use "CT" the same way I use the question "is this frequency in use".
My very first morse signal or my first voice signal is sent 2 or 3 times then a pause to determine if the frequency is actually in use by other people.

I believe this way is a gentlemanly way of working so I don't trample other band users.

I agree with Martin on his last point. I am ex-army from long ago and I know that I have been fast asleep with a headset on my ears and I have been able to respond to somebody calling my call sign on the radio. The human brain is certainly a wonderful thing. I guess in a way it is similar to having selective deafness when in the company of whinging squabbling children. Sorry! Couldn't resist throwing that one in.

Cheers.
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Old 14th Apr 2021, 3:58 pm   #26
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Default Re: Use of CT in morse?

The ability to filter a wanted signal from the general chatter has been described as "The cocktail party effect".
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Old 14th Apr 2021, 5:52 pm   #27
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Default Re: Use of CT in morse?

The correct way to ask if the frequency is in use is QRL? - without a CT in sight...

Related to the cocktail party effect - listening to the bands when you are sat right in front of the rig and all you hear is noise. Walk out of the shack to somewhere else and you miraculously suddenly hear the station you are expecting crystal clear. Dash back to the shack and you hear nothing. The human ear is an incredible thing!

73 Dave G3YMC
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Old 15th Apr 2021, 1:20 am   #28
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Default Re: Use of CT in morse?

Dave said:
Quote:
Dash back to the shack and you hear nothing. The human ear is an incredible thing!
Is that similar to "Raudive Voices" - listen to the same piece of noise over and over and suddenly a voice will say something!

https://psychicscience.org/evp
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Old 12th Feb 2022, 11:11 am   #29
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Default Re: Use of CT in morse

Re: https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=178822

First of all, let me apologize for not thanking everyone who responded to the original thread. It was all very informative and gave me quite a few pointers.

I eventually found an actual use of CT shown in:
Example QSO from THE MORSE CODE for RADIO AMATEURS - 3rd ed. 1964 Margaret Mills RSGB
Quote:
CT G5RV G5RV G5RV de G3ACC G3ACC G3ACC
Ge om es tks fer call=vy psed to meet u fer first time=
ur sigs rst 579 imi 579 hr QTH is Dulwich imi Dulwich
S.E. London=pse hw? G5RV G5RV G5RV de G3ACC
G3ACC G3ACC AR K

G3ACC G3ACC G3ACC de G5RV GSRV G5RV R
solid og=ge es mni tks fer fb rpt=ur sigs hr also fb rst
579 imi 579 hr in Chelmsford imi Chelmsford Essex=
Am using hr ECO FD PA running abt 50 watts—Rx
AR 88=Ant half wave=Wx hr vy warm sunny wid
nice cool breeze=Name hr Louis so hw nw?
G3ACC G3ACC G3ACC de G5RV G5RV G5RV AR K

G5RV G5RV G5RV de G3ACC G3ACC G3ACC R
solid Louis es tks fer gen on rig there ur sure puttin in fb
sig hr in South London cutting thro the local QRM=Rig
hr ECO FD PA running abt 30 watts to an 807=using
dipole es Rx is AR77E=Wx hr rather cloudy but warm
some QRN but not too bad HI=Well Louis hr abt QRU
nw so will sa mni tks fer a fb QSO hpe cuagn vy sn best
of luck es dx 73 cheerio AR G5RV G5RV G5RV de
G3ACC G3ACC G3ACC AR VA

G3ACC G3ACC G3ACC de G5RV G5RV G5RV R all
ok thro QRM=mni tks fer fb QSO will look fwd to
meeting agn sn=Hr nw also QRU so will sa cheerio
best of luck es dx vy 73 AR G3ACC G3ACC G3ACC
de GSRV G5RV G5RV AR VA
So that showed CT with 'wakey wakey' meaning just at the very start of the QSO.
It did, however, surprise me to see AR both before and after the callsigns at the end of the two final overs as well as VA.

Then, later on, I found another RSGB document of similar vintage:
Example QSO from A guide to AMATEUR RADIO - 12th ed. 1966 Pat Hawker RSGB
Quote:
CQ CQ CQ CQ DE G3ZZZ G3ZZZ + K

G3ZZZ G3ZZZ DE GM2XXX GM2XXX + K

GM2XXX DE G3ZZZ GM OM ES MNI TKS FER CALL = UR SIGS
RST 579X = QTH LONDON = NAME HR IS JOHN NW PSE
HW? + GM2XXX DE G3ZZZ K

G3ZZZ DE GM2XXX = R FB ES GM JOHN = TKS FER RPRT ES GUD
TO MEET U = UR RST 558C = QTH EDINBURGH ES NAME MAC
= WX COLD ES DULL = RIG IS VFO/FD/PA WID 75 WATTS
INPT ES ZEPP ANT = RX DOUBLE SUPER = 0K? + G3ZZZ
DE GM2XXX K

GM2XXX DE G3ZZZ = R 0K MAC ES TKS FER ALL = SRI ABT
CHIRP HR NEW VFO = RIG IS VFO/PA WID 15 WATTS ES 132
FT LONG WIRE = HR CNDX POOR FER DX = QSL VIA
RSGB = NW QRU? + GM2XXX DE G3ZZZ K

G3ZZZ DE GM2XXX = MOST 0K JOHN BUT NW VY HVY QRM
ON FREQ = 0K UR RFG ES WL SURE QSLL = NW 73 ES HPE
CUAGN SN = GM JOHN ES GUD DX + G3ZZZ DE GM2XXX VA

GM2XXX DE G3ZZZ = R FB MAC ES MNI TKS FER QSO = 73 ES
BCNU GB + GM2XXX DE G3ZZZ VA
So, here there was no use of CT and the placement of AR (or +) was before the final callsign exchange of each over, rather than after.

So it seems that there was no real consensus, even at that time...
All a bit theoretical really, but I hope you may find it interesting too.

Thanks again
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Old 12th Feb 2022, 10:51 pm   #30
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Default Re: Use of CT in morse?

Surely no need to send calls three times after establishing contact and given that both stations are at least 5 and 8.
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Old 13th Feb 2022, 2:47 am   #31
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Default Re: Use of CT in morse

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty_Bin View Post

It did, however, surprise me to see AR both before and after the callsigns at the end of the two final overs as well as VA.
I've never encountered AR before the callsigns, it seems plain wrong

Ending a QSO with AR VA dit dit dit seems common with amateurs, I've done it myself. Sort of the telegraphy version of "Shave and a haircut"
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Old 13th Feb 2022, 1:56 pm   #32
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Default Re: Use of CT in morse?

Hi

2 Metre FM Morse class texts here in Norfolk are preceded by CT barred
and end with AR barred.

I guess its to take the 'surprise' element out of the start, and the go ahead
for the sigh of relief at the end of the text for us students!

Kind regards
Dave
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Old 13th Feb 2022, 4:02 pm   #33
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Default Re: Use of CT in morse?

Indeed.
It was how the 12WPM Morse test was conducted for "real".
My dad drove me to Liverpool when I took mine, it was at the docks, in the Liver building if I remember right.
The examiner must have been a Merchant Navy RO instructor, I was quite terrified, it was just me taking the test.

It was all very formal with the prosigns etc, but on the other hand his sending was slower than 12wpm and he stopped me sending before I had finished and told me I had passed, presumably before I made too many mistakes!

At the end of the day I guess what he wanted to know is that I could copy and comply with an official station instructing me to close down.

That scenario actually happened to me on 80m, a coastal station told me to close down probably due to the chirpy signal I was putting out, I fully expected a "visit" but I didn't get one.
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Old 13th Feb 2022, 11:06 pm   #34
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Default Re: Use of CT in morse?

Hi Graham,

Passed mine in '84 at Portishead but never used it on air.

Now decided to try studying and practising again , this time
with prosigns and punctuation. GB2CW classes fantastic here,
so I'm hopeful that before too long i'll be dipping my toe.

Kind regards
Dave
G0ELJ.
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Old 13th Feb 2022, 11:49 pm   #35
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Default Re: Use of CT in morse?

Those sample QSOs above seem very wordy and tedious by today's standards. Because of QRZ.com it's rare to hear anyone even give their location nowadays, and callsigns are dropped between overs.
You might hear eg "tu ur 5NN op Yuri tu 73 VA"
And of course as CW has become a rather specialised interest, speeds tend to be much higher
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Old 3rd Mar 2022, 10:41 pm   #36
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Default Re: Use of CT in morse?

Don't blame me if the following keep you reading until the small hours.

ACP124 was drilled into to young RO(G).
https://www.navy-radio.com/manuals/acp/acp124d.pdf

ACP131 tells you more Q codes and Z codes that you can keep in one brain.
https://www.angelfire.com/va3/navy_mars/ACP131.pdf

What brought me into the conversation: AR was taken to mean OUT, as K as everyone knows is Over.
And long break (BT sent as one) separated the call etc from the message which ended in BT.

Finally, INT before a Q/Z code eg INT QRU posed the question (interrogative QRU) have you anything for me and the reply QRU I have nothing for you.


ZKJ2 AR

73
Toni

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Old 5th Mar 2022, 3:47 pm   #37
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Default Re: Use of CT in morse?

I never 'got' into manually-generated Morse, being rather more [professionally] involved with RTTY, where we had the benefit of 'autostart' to wake up an unattended TU.

ZCZCZCZC was the inevitable preamble [we had autosend discs for this] and when operating on manual you _always_ sent [LTRS][CR]{CR][LF][CR]{CR][LTRS] if you got the 'near-end-of-line' bell.

Overshooting a line [so leaving the poor printhead bashing against the right-side of the paper] or not doing a LF so your next-typed content overtyped the previous line were both considered carsinal sins.

What's the RTTY-equivalent of a 'Lid' operator>?
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Old 5th Mar 2022, 7:21 pm   #38
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Default Re: Use of CT in morse?

This morning I found some 40m CW on my ICF-SW7600G, freshly tuned away from the new BBC WS frequencies.

A G4 in Kent with someone in Holland, nice speed ~12WPM. Ragchew with good discipline and altogether a good bit of practice while making the morning coffee. Should do it more.

There was CW happening on 15m too. That was much faster and more formulaic, as described in post #35. A DXpedition most likely.

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Old 20th Apr 2022, 10:30 pm   #39
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Default Re: Use of CT in morse?

_ . _ . _

I am "old school" in all matters of amateur radio and, certainly, CW. As a yank I sat before real examiners at the US Federal Communications Commission and took real amateur licensing tests as well as commercial tests. The examiner administering the receiving test used a perforated paper tape Instructograph machine and it began with "dah-di-dah-di-dah." At the time I wasn't sure what to right down so I waited for what followed to be sent (we only needed to copy 1 minute perfectly out of 5 minutes of sending). In my 50+ years of hamming (40+ exclusively using CW) I consistently have used the prosign "AR" at the end of a transmission and prior to sending callsigns. But the "CT" prosign warrants my thanking the very experienced Morse men on this fine forum for telling me about the "dah-di-dah-di-dah" that preceded those FCC tests many years ago.

So I am publicaly announcing that beginning tonight I will begin each transmission with the "CT" prosign.

While I am banging away at this keyboard there is another matter I would like to bring up. Although most US hams (and virtually NO contesters) are polite enough to inquire on the air, "QRL" before launching into a CQ, those that do often insist on drawing the inquiry out unnecessarily to "Q R L ? ?"----consuming much more time than necessary. If one is trying to copy a weak station, all this extra A1 emission further obliterates any QSO in progress. It's most annoying. Whatever happened to the old-school "IE" that we used to use? "Di-dit dit" takes up very little time. Anyone involved in a QSO would know that someone is wondering if the frequency is clear without sending a Q-signal plus one or two question marks. Sometimes the QRL inquiry is sent twice or three times in rapid succession so obviously the station originating the inquiry isn't even taking the time to listen for a response (let alone tune on each side of the frequency).

So I'm done using "QRL"---it's too long and obliterates QSOs already in progress. Beginning today I am returning to "IE." No one will probably know or remember what this meant back when hams were a lot more courteous than they are now, but maybe if I do it enough some might figure it out.

. _ . _ .
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Old 21st Apr 2022, 12:30 am   #40
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Default Re: Use of CT in morse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IsquaredR View Post
Whatever happened to the old-school "IE" that we used to use? "Di-dit dit" takes up very little time. Anyone involved in a QSO would know that someone is wondering if the frequency is clear without sending a Q-signal plus one or two question marks.
...and the crisp reply would just be the letter, "C" (meaning "yes"). Question and answer communicated with a minimum of time.
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