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Old 12th May 2020, 6:36 pm   #41
SiriusHardware
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

This does happen from time to time. One of the most common show-stopping failures on Sinclair ZX81 computers is their keypad membrane, especially in respect of the ribbon cables which connect the keypad membrane to the main PCB, which tends to crumble away.

Up to a certain point in time that was it, game over, unless you replaced the keyboard with something completely non-original.

A while ago someone had some new membranes manufactured and they are still being sold many years later. Moreover, the new ones are not only a very close match appearance-wise but actually work rather better as well. I had to buy one myself just recently so I'm grateful for the initiative shown by whoever had them made in the first place.
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Old 12th May 2020, 7:00 pm   #42
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

The problem is, or the question is, are we referring to making stocks of these parts or making them to order? because if it's the former, then the amount of dodgy, 'prone to failure' parts on vintage radios and TVs runs into thousands. A glass dial for a 'nowt special' 50s radio for example. On the other hand, making one offs is very expensive. Yes, I'd love there to be replacements for unobtainable parts, but apart from parts needed for sets such as round Ekcos and the like where 1) there are enough sets 'in need', 2) they are valuable sets, and 3) it is viable to spend a fair amount on a replacement part, then it's always going to be difficult. Kinda like an expert spending 20 hours restoring a plain old vintage radio that's only worth £30 in mint condition. If his hourly rate is only £10/hour ie the charge would be £200, it just doesn't stack up does it?

On the plus side, there are many individuals around who make various replacement parts. The easiest thing to do is simply ask on here, "does anyone know where I can get a replacement back for a Vidor 366A?". And who knows, you may be lucky.
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Old 12th May 2020, 7:04 pm   #43
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

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Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler View Post
If you give things away for free, there is always be a small number of people who carp about the cost of postage.

I once had the job of finding a home for approx 47,000 brand spanking new premium grade RF transistors. If you bought them in singles from RS they were a fiver a pop. It was a lifebuy being dumped. A big box of 5000 went to the US, another to Russia, boxes of 500 went to clubs all over the place.

You'd have thought with that many, every QRP transmitter built or appearing in the magazines would use one or two. Nope. I haven't come across a single trace of any coming to light at all. They must all have gone into many people's stashes never to be used. "Yes, I'll take a couple of handfuls" people making sure they would have several lifetimes worth.

I'd agreed that they would not be sold, they were to be given free and they were. Dealers offered me money. But instead, at that price, the first people quickly decided that they wanted an infinite quantity.

They didn't get shared round at all well.

I'm afraid the Ooooh! Shiny! syndrome took hold.

Even with a huge quantity available to give away for free, greed rears its ugly head and it all goes per-shaped.

I don't expect it'll ever happen again, but next time maybe the landfill will win.

David
Were those the 2N3866s with an in-house marking? If so, here's some light. The pic is a pair of cascode amplifiers I use for IMD measurements.

Best wishes, Alan
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Old 12th May 2020, 7:06 pm   #44
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

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OK - who's up for doing PX4s?
Ha ha!, nice one, i think there might already be small scale production of said unobtainium, but you still need very deep pockets to buy them.
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Old 12th May 2020, 7:17 pm   #45
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

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Originally Posted by GrimJosef View Post
Quite a few Mullard production machines are in line for use in the Great British Valve Project https://brimaruk.com/menugbvp/about-the-gbvp/.

For a while a decade or so ago Blackburn Microtech Solutions tried to turn their skills to producing modern valves on the Blackburn site. The E813CC http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/e813cc.pdf was, I think, the only one that went into production. But the market is looking for close-ish replicas of traditional designs, not novel devices, and I believe BMS ceased trading quite quickly.
BMS was founded as a spinoff/symbiose of LG Philips Displays around the time of their first bankrupcy but didn't manage to gather enough funds to survive LG Displays second bankrupcy. To prevent going bankrupt themselves, the company was then dismantled and put into hibernation.

I don't really think this is because the market in general was looking for replicas. More because they didn't manage to ramp up production in time. Their first valves did have some problems with microphony and they were still working on that, I believe.

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Old 12th May 2020, 7:20 pm   #46
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

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Originally Posted by SiriusHardware View Post
Another thing which needs tackling is the 'cheese gears' used in certain plastic Philips cassette mechanisms, the ones made from opaque yellow plastic which just crumble ... like cheese. Due to the helical twist on the teeth on the outer rim, these gears would be unusually difficult to cast in resin, I think.

I bought a couple of 3D printed replacements from the USA but had to ask them to redo them as the first ones supplied had been printed far too quickly at too low a resolution. I had to ask them to print me replacements at the highest resolution / slowest speed they could, and those ones were just about acceptable.
mfbfreaks.com has some replicas and in their forums there's also a few topics about making replicas.

Not from the original polyurethane cheese, though.
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Old 12th May 2020, 7:48 pm   #47
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

Thanks for that info, which I will follow up. I think the original ones might have been more durable had they been made from actual cheese.
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Old 12th May 2020, 7:50 pm   #48
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

I've never really understood why it is seemingly so difficult to reverse engineer and manufacture valves that are faithful replicas in all aspects of their performance, of Mullard valves. The guitarist amp market (alone) for the EL34, EL84, ECC81/2/3 and GZ 34 is massive and prepared to pay big money for accurate clones, especially with the name Mullard printed on them. Yes, I know, you can buy new 'Mullard' EL34s, the New Sensor Corporation are using the name, but they don't perform like the originals, nothing does - as yet. Copy blue boxes too.

For those interested: https://www.thetubestore.com/mullard-el34
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Old 12th May 2020, 8:00 pm   #49
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

Re #41, correct!

You could always try contacting the rights owner for permission. I guess you could argue that you would be providing them with some free market research to see if it would be worth their while to remanufacture themselves!

I was once told that someone had asked GEC for permission to re-print one of their old books on valves. Permission was given to do so, royalty-free, as GEC was no longer interested in valves. I don't know the details, it was before my time there.

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Old 12th May 2020, 8:10 pm   #50
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

Of course, it does give OEMs a mechanism for enforcing planned obsolescence - they stop manufacturing the spares, and at the same time can prevent others from doing so by enforcing their 20-year patent. Result - equipment is unrepairable and useless. I'm sure that we can all bring to mind manufacturers that may be doing this - take the DAB radio market, for example. And, of course, they also hold copyright on the service information - which lasts much longer than 20 years.

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Old 12th May 2020, 8:36 pm   #51
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

If someone does use a patent to keep something off the market, in some circumstances it is possible to have the patent revoked for non-use, or ask the Patent Office for a compulsory licence, which, if granted, would be on a reasonable royalty rate basis. I never had this come up when I was working, but it was a topic often found in professional exams. These remedies are not available for copyright, so no remedy for non-availability of service manuals etc.

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Old 17th May 2020, 3:23 pm   #52
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

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The more I think about this, the less viable it sounds. Unless there's some money in it, for which read a market, for which read enough people wanting that bit in a small enough time window, no professional (by which I mean paid) concern is going to touch it. That leaves the backwoodsman in his workshop, of which, fortunately, there are still a few, doing one-offs or small batches for those prepared to pay. I'd love to see tape heads back in production, but don't think for a moment it's going to happen unless a lot of money is put in upfront for plant and expertise, which itself will soon be in short supply. And, being truthful, just what is the success rate of generally available 3D printing in producing anything close to original quality? Not very high, I think.

As an example, I have a nice Textronix 'scope which has a broken knob skirt. I have the bit, so could glue it back, or I could look for a used replacement in the usual places. Or I could organise re-manufacture, making the brass insert, sourcing the plastic mixes, making the moulds, making the parts, engraving the skirt, assembling the whole...for a market of...two? three? ten?

Sorry guys, dream on...
Someone on EEVblog (can 't recall who) has made a new skirt for one of the knobs on his model of Tek.
They have a large complement of test equipment nutters on that forum!
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Old 17th May 2020, 3:28 pm   #53
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

Folks might be interested in watching the Glasslinger youtube channel. He sometimes makes new valves at home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXAjspPLzRQ
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Old 17th May 2020, 4:02 pm   #54
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

He's one clever guy, don't know what he did in a previous life but it must've been some job!.
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Old 17th May 2020, 9:21 pm   #55
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Kendall View Post
The more I think about this, the less viable it sounds. Unless there's some money in it, for which read a market, for which read enough people wanting that bit in a small enough time window, no professional (by which I mean paid) concern is going to touch it. That leaves the backwoodsman in his workshop, of which, fortunately, there are still a few, doing one-offs or small batches for those prepared to pay. I'd love to see tape heads back in production, but don't think for a moment it's going to happen unless a lot of money is put in upfront for plant and expertise, which itself will soon be in short supply. And, being truthful, just what is the success rate of generally available 3D printing in producing anything close to original quality? Not very high, I think.

As an example, I have a nice Textronix 'scope which has a broken knob skirt. I have the bit, so could glue it back, or I could look for a used replacement in the usual places. Or I could organise re-manufacture, making the brass insert, sourcing the plastic mixes, making the moulds, making the parts, engraving the skirt, assembling the whole...for a market of...two? three? ten?

Sorry guys, dream on...
And what you are saying is precisely why it is a good idea. Individuals usually want one or small quantities of something. Say knobs for a particular set, or a new front panel or whatever. But the only way that such jobs are viable in a commercial sense is if the quantities are attractive to both a commercial manufacturer and the buyers. And what is usually the case is that 50 off something doesn't cost much more than 1 off. So if the potential buyers can get together and aggregate their orders, then suddenly it does become viable to deal with commercial companies offering professional skill levels. The actual organising of groups of buyers doesn't usually cost much - its the time and effort that someone has to put in that is hard to come by.

As an example of what can be done, I bought 0.1uF 400V and 0.01uF 400V axial capacitors in quantities of hundreds each from a company in USA many years back. At the time I think RF and Farnell wanted 50 pence plus per unit - I got the price down to around 11 to 13 pence per unit, which included post to me from USA and then post around the UK to individual buyers. It made my own purchase viable, because the American company would not sell in quantities less than 100, and I think I only wanted 50 personally (as did lots of others). The amount of effort to do this on my part wasn't vastly more than actually placing an order just for myself - just extra emails out to potential buyers then making up packages of the right quantities and posting them. I can't see why people make such a big deal of simple co-operative efforts like this - but I recall the committee of VMARS at the time wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. No idea why since with hundreds of potential buyers quantities could be huge. It actually worked without a hitch with about half a dozen buyers.

Richard
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Old 18th May 2020, 9:53 am   #56
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

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Originally Posted by Alan_G3XAQ View Post
Were those the 2N3866s with an in-house marking? If so, here's some light. The pic is a pair of cascode amplifiers I use for IMD measurements.
Indeed so. If yours have 4-247 written on the cylindrical surface of their TO-5 can, then I assume yours are two of them. Maybe from a G-QRP club stall or from 'ROO.

Wonder where the other 46,998 went.... but seeing some in use makes it worthwhile. They cost me nothing and they were delivered to places I was going to anyway. It's just disappointing they didn't spread more. They're something a lot of people could have used. There are a few out there that I sent out recently doing sterling work in some loop antenna preamps.

Imagine if it had been the same quantity of NOS premium grade boxed ECC83. That's what it feels like to an RF guy.

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Old 18th May 2020, 10:01 am   #57
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

Some of those transistors came my way. I passed them on to forum members building loop antennas.
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Old 18th May 2020, 10:05 am   #58
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

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As an example of what can be done, I bought 0.1uF 400V and 0.01uF 400V axial capacitors in quantities of hundreds each from a company in USA many years back. At the time I think RF and Farnell wanted 50 pence plus per unit - I got the price down to around 11 to 13 pence per unit, which included post to me from USA and then post around the UK to individual buyers. It made my own purchase viable, because the American company would not sell in quantities less than 100, and I think I only wanted 50 personally (as did lots of others). The amount of effort to do this on my part wasn't vastly more than actually placing an order just for myself - just extra emails out to potential buyers then making up packages of the right quantities and posting them. I can't see why people make such a big deal of simple co-operative efforts like this - but I recall the committee of VMARS at the time wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. No idea why since with hundreds of potential buyers quantities could be huge. It actually worked without a hitch with about half a dozen buyers.

Richard
I think some newbie forum members could do with a service like that right now. The supply of "capacitor kits" to suit specific radios etc. It would ensure they bought the correct items and avoid the need to buy capacitors they didn't need from the big suppliers.
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Old 18th May 2020, 11:50 am   #59
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

WRT valves: I read from someone connected with Telefunken that one of the big problems in making low noise / low microphony valves is availability of certain alloys He was saying that, although the material could be made today, the demand is too low to warrant it. This was coming from a microphone specialist. As some of you may be aware, there are German mic valves that can fetch thousands in good condition. This was something he put decades of work into. It's a different situation to power valves and the like, but is probably part of the reason why TFK and Mullards are so desirable today (assuming they are real!).
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 2:23 pm   #60
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Copyright laws are complex, different in different countries, and the goalposts are continually changing due to new legal interpretations, as well as changes to the legislation itself. While I have not kept up to date with the finer points since retiring, it is my understanding that, in the UK, copyright only applies ( to use the language of the 1988 Copyright Act) to " original literary, dramatic, musical or artistic works; sound recordings, films or broadcasts; and the typographical arrangements of published editions".

Objects not falling under these headings are not protected by copyright , but by other rights such as design right. Patents, and Trade Marks. Whereas copyright generally lasts for a term of years after the death if the author ( often 70 years, sometimes shorter), registered design right lasts for 25 years max from registration, and unregistered design right only 10 years from the creation of a design document describing it. Registered Trade Marks can go on for ever, as long as renewal fees are paid. The consequence is that, if a vintage mechanical item is more than 25 years old, any patent, registered or unregistered design rights will almost certainly have expired, and all you have to consider is any existing trademark rights. So having vintage repro parts made commercially does not involve copyright infringement for the UK.

Thus anyone is legally entitled to make exact copies of the basic Lego brick, as long as their copies do not bear the Lego Trade Mark ( the courts gave short shrift to a far eastern company who sold theirs under the name "0637"!). However, you cannot make copies of any of the later bricks for which design right still exists. This would seem to explain Lego's practice of regularly bringing out new models that incorporate new brick shapes.

I have no idea what the situation is in Australia, but do know that copyright covers a different range of things in the USA than it does in the UK. This is something to be kept in mind when getting info from the internet, and is a fact not always appreciated by even large US companies when they have attempted to enforce rights that do not exist in the UK.

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