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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 11:21 am   #1621
turretslug
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

Someone needs to take whoever wrote that ad linked to in GJ's post #1615 aside and point out that excitable gibberish such as "indescribably incredible" and "awesome" is a big turn-off to adult readers. It makes me think of those internet scams where deliberate spelling mistakes are present to weed out the non simple-minded.
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 12:12 pm   #1622
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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Originally Posted by GrimJosef View Post
I'm not sure if this has been posted before. If it has then apologies. Otherwise I think we have a winner.

https://www.auralthrillsaudio.com/t2.htm

"Other cables are just wire in comparison."

I started to trace the circuit out, but then I lost the will to live. I'm pretty sure it would have been better with a valve rectifier though.

Cheers,

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Rather interestingly, it appears to use a bog standard IEC mains inlet. Well, using an 'audiophile' inlet with associated rhodium plating etc. would be snake oil, wouldn't it?
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 12:22 pm   #1623
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

On another page he says

"Our cables have been specially designed to provide a clear, deep sound by utilizing solid core technology. Stranded wire has many points where the wires touch each other. This creates a smearing effect as the signal jumps from one wire to the other. The larger the wire, the more this effect becomes evident. Research also shows that stranded cables creates time distortions due to the uneven manner in which the signal travels"

Jumping signals. Who would have thunk?
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 1:10 pm   #1624
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Default Re: 'Cable Break In' - I never knew that!

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There's some truly risible stuff out there, frequently associated with price tags that are also risible, too but it's a question of degree, proportion, relative sanity.... Many folk here (including me) will wax lyrical about a well-put together piece of vintage kit, even if it has little material effect on the basic functionality. Those who have worked with professional/military kit probably get quite a liking for aerospace/PTFE-type wiring neatly loomed up, expensive and quality connectors, sturdy machined fittings with stainless fasteners and so on- Argus 25's recent post about a beautifully made monochrome monitor provoked the comment that it would likely have worked as well if it had a single SRBP circuit board and a plastic case. Ampex-Kudelski's VPR-5 was a feast in exotic CNC-ery- but the Japanese outsold and eclipsed it with professional developments of video cassette formats using transports made of folded mild steel rather than expensively machined aviation alloy- but it was very precisely folded mild steel and was good enough nearly all the time for a lot less money. Appreciating quality is a Good Thing, but perfectionism is a slippery slope, as some of the audiophool excess proves.

It's a case of staying grounded (!) and learning to apply appropriate value judgement for return on investment- or creeping madness....
There is also the borderland with art.

It's possible to make equipment with all soers of looks and styling, it's also possible to make things working in unusual ways. This can be very satisfying, you can do thiinfgs just for the hell of it. Why not? it's a hobby. Some people get their jollies at a weekend by driving a 1920s Bentley to a meet-up, and everyone around looks at them and smiles and takes photographs. If you look at the materials and workmanship, it's far far nicer than a Focus ST. But don't try saying the Bentley gets more MPG, MPH or G than the focus. Then it gets numerical and superiority/inferiority can be proven objectively.

In the same way, the audiophilia companies produce some nice looking stuff, some of which would be fun to have, just for the looks. The problem comes in that looks aren't performance. Mankind's eyes and sense of what looks right is tuned for moving parts and mechanisms. Things which work electrically can often be highly counter-intuitive.

The audiophile stuff looks like some of it could be great fun, if only they didn't blow it all with attempts at justification and explanation.

It is now sufficiently easy to make a great amplifier, with nothing audible which can be blamed on it, that we can play about a bit, just for the fun of it.

The guy doing those expensive cables David EBT linked to says he spent 4 years at Ear Training School. Was that where I went wrong? I did a 4-year BSc, and that involved many hours staring at equations by the blackboardful. My ears only got a workout in one lab session measuring speaker responses and even then I deferred to the opinion of a half-inch B&K capacitor mike.

It's a bit like a Turing test, If you think more effort and money was spent on a product's name and advertising than was spent on developing the product itself, then run away run away very quickly.

David
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Old 12th Jul 2020, 8:16 am   #1625
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

Here we go. The Nordost Odin 2 speaker cable https://www.nordost.com/odin-supreme...aker-cable.php which sells for £29k for a 1 meter pair. If you want a more realistic 2.5 meter pair that will set you back £41k.

Complement your Nordost set up with the tonearm cable https://www.nordost.com/odin-supreme...earm-cable.php at £11k, and mains cables https://www.nordost.com/odin-supreme...power-cord.php as £16.5k each.

Craig
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Old 12th Jul 2020, 8:56 am   #1626
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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Complement your Nordost set up with the tonearm cable https://www.nordost.com/odin-supreme...earm-cable.php at £11k
What does "Velocity of Propogation: 90%" mean?
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Old 12th Jul 2020, 9:55 am   #1627
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Sawyers View Post
Complement your Nordost set up with the tonearm cable https://www.nordost.com/odin-supreme...earm-cable.php at £11k
What does "Velocity of Propogation: 90%" mean?
Er, audiophoolery?
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Old 12th Jul 2020, 10:16 am   #1628
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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What does "Velocity of Propogation: 90%" mean?
The most 'real world' meaning would be if the dielectric around the conductors had an effective relative permittivity of 1.235, say because it was a mix of mostly air and some plastic. The speed of electromagnetic signals down the cable would then be 90% of its speed in vacuum (the speed of light). I can't see why anyone would care though. When I worked on nanosecond pulsers propagation speeds mattered a great deal. But they don't with audio.

Cheers,

GJ
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Old 12th Jul 2020, 11:56 am   #1629
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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Originally Posted by Craig Sawyers View Post
Here we go. The Nordost Odin 2 speaker cable https://www.nordost.com/odin-supreme...aker-cable.php ...
Craig
According to that spec, it "reduces damping".
Is that really what we want from a speaker cable?
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Old 12th Jul 2020, 12:19 pm   #1630
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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What does "Velocity of Propogation: 90%" mean?
It probably means they're confused with Velocity factor, a perfectly normal parameter of matched transmission lines.

IF so, then it means that the surroundings of their conductors is mostly air.
(solid polythene would be about 60% PTFE 68%). With the hyper expensive 2.5 metre option, it means you get to hear your music about 5 nanoseconds sooner than if you had mere plastic insulation.

For an audiophile with the sort of busy lifestyle needed to fund these things, the waiting must add up and hang heavy.

David
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Old 12th Jul 2020, 1:47 pm   #1631
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

Note that they say their copper wire is 99.999999% pure. That is known as 8-nines purity.

That is either nonsense, or has been assayed very carefully indeed. The only sure fire way of measuring it is to cool the copper to 4K and measure its Residual Resistance Ratio (RRR) which is sensitive to copper purity, crystal boundaries etc (ie anything that scatters
phonons). In fact ultra-pure copper, which has been carefully annealed can give an RRR of 2000. Problem is that it is as soft as lead in that state, and once exposed to the atmosphere it scavenges oxygen and its purity degrades.

Regular ETP copper has an RRR of ~50 and OHNO audio grade copper is ~200.
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Old 12th Jul 2020, 1:58 pm   #1632
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

In any event, it is being fed by an amplifier with hundreds, or thousands, of solder joints, and a smorgasbord of dissimilar materials in every transistor, resistor and capacitor. And feeds a loudspeaker with a crossover, and a voice coil whose resistance changes quite dramatically with power level (a process called thermal compression). And gives typically 0.3% to >1% harmonic distortion.

So the bit of wire connecting the real world amp to a real world speaker is to first (and n'th order) irrelevant. It needs to be good enough, but no more.

Craig
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Old 12th Jul 2020, 4:34 pm   #1633
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

It seems that having any sense of proportion is an absolute impediment to anyone becoming an audiophile.

Heisenberg gets involved, too. They can clearly hear things that theoretically might be there even when they are not. They must span multiple universes.

David
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Old 12th Jul 2020, 4:43 pm   #1634
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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It probably means they're confused with Velocity factor, a perfectly normal parameter of matched transmission lines.
Rather than being confused it seems to me that they are trying to confuse or at the very least distract the reader from reality.

Alan
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Old 12th Jul 2020, 4:49 pm   #1635
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

You may say so Minister, I couldn't possibly comment
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Old 12th Jul 2020, 5:47 pm   #1636
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

I said Heisenberg, I meant Schrödinger, of course.

Doh! I'm getting confused, now.

David
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Old 12th Jul 2020, 5:52 pm   #1637
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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I said Heisenberg, I meant Schrödinger, of course.

Doh! I'm getting confused, now.

David
It's a fair swap, they both were looking at quantum mechanics and trying to work out why some things seemed to be there when they probably weren't....
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Last edited by mole42uk; 12th Jul 2020 at 5:59 pm.
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Old 12th Jul 2020, 5:58 pm   #1638
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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Originally Posted by Craig Sawyers View Post
In any event, it is being fed by an amplifier with hundreds, or thousands, of solder joints, and a smorgasbord of dissimilar materials in every transistor, resistor and capacitor. And feeds a loudspeaker with a crossover, and a voice coil whose resistance changes quite dramatically with power level (a process called thermal compression). And gives typically 0.3% to >1% harmonic distortion.

So the bit of wire connecting the real world amp to a real world speaker is to first (and n'th order) irrelevant. It needs to be good enough, but no more.

Craig
The Odins do look nice though. I like the lump of wood on each.
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Old 12th Jul 2020, 6:51 pm   #1639
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Sawyers View Post
In any event, it is being fed by an amplifier with hundreds, or thousands, of solder joints, and a smorgasbord of dissimilar materials in every transistor, resistor and capacitor. And feeds a loudspeaker with a crossover, and a voice coil whose resistance changes quite dramatically with power level (a process called thermal compression). And gives typically 0.3% to >1% harmonic distortion.

So the bit of wire connecting the real world amp to a real world speaker is to first (and n'th order) irrelevant. It needs to be good enough, but no more.

Craig
The Odins do look nice though. I like the lump of wood on each.
I'd make those bits of wood in less than an hour. Out of stuff a whole lot more exotic than theirs. Like bog oak, from drowned oak forests and older than the pyramids, or Cocobolo, Goncalo Alves or Purpleheart.

Craig
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Old 12th Jul 2020, 6:51 pm   #1640
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

I've always said - and this cuts a great swathe through the world of hifi and its preoccupation with ultra low distortion levels - that speakers have around 2% distortion. Apparently listening tests show that odd harmonic distortion is audible form 0.1%, whilst even harmonic distortion is audible form 1%. So, no matter how good your amplifiers are - and I'm not saying that you won't be able to distinguish a good amp from a bad one 'beneath' a speaker - you're still going to be listening to that amount of distortion at the end of the chain ie around 2%. Game over. For some.
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