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Vintage Tape (Audio), Cassette, Wire and Magnetic Disc Recorders and Players Open-reel tape recorders, cassette recorders, 8-track players etc.

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Old 22nd Jun 2022, 7:53 pm   #1
DMcMahon
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Default Grundig TK 8/3D Check Out

Late 1950's, 2 track, valve (x5), 2 speed, Serial # 5011 39380, mono reel to reel recorder, recently purchased, it was sold as "Not Working"/"Will Not switch On".

It is my second TK 8 but I have yet to check the first one out.

I think at the time of its release it was considered quite a good recorder sound quality wise, especially for the relatively low cost.

The User Guide manual that came with it has various hand written notes including references to U/S Bias Oscillator valve, cross talk and spool spindle splines, looks like was fixed by Grundig July 1958 so this helps to date the recorder.

Condition wise it is a bit tatty with some green paint scraped off the top panel (maybe due to rust) but overall not bad. Some damage to the fast wind control knob plastic covering.

The 3D part of the model number is Grundig's reference to what they called 3D sound, which uses 3 speakers. One schematic shows the 3 speakers (2 x treble units and 1 elliptical) wired in series, another schematic shows the 2 treble speakers wired in series with a 20uF capacitor also in series, being connected in parallel across the elliptical speaker.

A Grundig Marketing leaflet says about the 3D sound (I quote) "The TK8-3D uses three speakers, non of them ordinary; for the lower frequencies a special elliptical type is employed and it is buttressed by two treble units. Between them they cover the whole range and the effect is magical. It is best described as "three-dimensional", having in addition to its purity of tone, the "rounded" quality that we ascribe to "living" sound".

So I am looking forward to hearing this magical 3D sound

Removing the 2 core mains flex from the stowage compartment (3 pin plug of course fitted with a 13A fuse) I found that the mains voltage selector was pulled out, not sure if it got pulled out when I pulled the cable out. One of the 2 fuses (HT I think) in the mains cable stowage compartment was missing (screw fuse cap not missing).

In the other compartment on the rear panel was a blue thick cable (have thrown it away) and a tiny white plastic toothed piece that looks like it has broken off from somewhere, assuming it belongs to the TK 8 will need to find a home for it.

Removing the top panel shows that all drive belts are in place and all 5 valves, nothing looks untoward from the top,

Next to remove the chassis out of the case and visually check the underside.

David
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Old 23rd Jun 2022, 8:52 pm   #2
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Default Re: Grundig TK 8/3D Check Out

Removed the chassis from the case, in the case found the missing HT fuse.

Chassis pretty dirty underneath so did mini spring clean. As expected lots of the dark brown Wima "toffee sweet" capacitors, some of them very difficult to access. As it will take quite a while to test/replace these capacitors, will look at them later once unit powered up and hopefully tape transport proven etc.

Two parts I cannot easily identify:-

1. Socket (aerial co-ax type) on end of the amplifier module, cannot see it on the schematic. The rectangular cut-out (for the socket) in the metal cover for the amplifier looks home done so assume this is some sort of add on/modification.

The socket is wired to a small device that looks from the rear like a switch (slide switch ?) but there is no switch actuator on the front of the device. The socket is not shown on the components location drawing.

2. A coil/winding near the EL 84 output pentode, this also is not shown on the components location drawing. Later will trace where the wires connect to.

Depending upon which documentation I looked at, the position of the HT and mains fuses were different so buzzed out the fuse connections to make sure that fit correct fuse into correct fuse holder.

David
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Old 23rd Jun 2022, 9:55 pm   #3
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Default Re: Grundig TK 8/3D Check Out

Checked out the speaker connections.

They are as per one of the various schematics, with the 2 treble units wired in series then a 20uF capacitor (non polarised electrolytic) connected in series, then all 3 then wired in parallel across the main speaker.

David
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Old 24th Jun 2022, 11:35 am   #4
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Default Re: Grundig TK 8/3D Check Out

Checked out the mystery socket + switch more.

Found that by poking firmly the white plastic piece of the switch with a small screwdriver blade could get it to move left and right and it felt like it was actuating the switch.

Could not see or get to all the switch contacts as partially covered by large pre-set (R42 EM81 Magic Eye sensitivity adjustment). Tried to remove R42 by unsoldering but not keen to come off terminal strip, so had to remove the Paxolin board that socket & switch are fitted to.

By measurement the white piece when moved does change the 2 way/2 pole slide switch setting to the other set of contacts. The socket connections go to one side of the switch and two 2 core screened cables go to the common contacts of the switch and the other side of the switch. So looks like the switch is switching 2 signal lines either to the socket or back into the amplifier circuitry. The outer connection of the socket is not grounded.

Trying to remove the pre-set had to lift one end of C23 (0.25uF) which measured bad, so will renew, there is another Wima capacitor hiding under C23 so will replace that before replacing C23.

Trying to trace where the two 2 core screened cables go to but it is very difficult.

David
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Old 24th Jun 2022, 7:03 pm   #5
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Default Re: Grundig TK 8/3D Check Out

Partially have traced where the two 2 core screened cables connect to.

The cable (black outer insulation) to the slide switch common terminals ends up disappearing down a hole in the top metal plate to which the heads and other bits fit onto.

It is impossible (without doing a biggish strip down) to see the wires that go from and to the Play/Record head, but pretty sure the cable must connect into the Play/Record head wiring.

The cable (grey outer insulation) that connects to one switched side of the slide switch ends up at a switch wafer at the main Selector switch, not yet worked out which wafer # (there are 4) and which wafer contacts.

Replaced the following Wima capacitors with new Polypropylene :-

C9 0.05uF
C21 0.1uF grid coupler from anode of first stage of ECC81.
C23 0.25uF decoupler on EM81 control grid signal.
C24 5,000pF grid coupler into EL84 control grid (via R53).

All the capacitors had very high capacitance, high ESR & poor insulation resistance.

Refitted the socket & slide switch board.

Now having got into capacitor replacing mode will replace the rest of the Wimas (at least 5 I think) before powering up.

David
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Old 25th Jun 2022, 4:13 pm   #6
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Default Re: Grundig TK 8/3D Check Out

Have replaced most of the remaining Wima capacitors namely:-

C7 0.01uF Bias Oscillator EL42 Screen Grid de-coupler.
C11 0.05uF EF86 Anode grid coupler.
C14 0.02uF Grid coupler to first stage of ECC81.
C16 0.025uF Grid coupler from first stage anode of ECC81.
C30 0.001uF across O/P Transformer primary.
C35 0.05uF De-coupler a condenser microphone polarisation supply circuitry.
C42 0.025uF at O/P transformer second secondary winding.

Had run out of new 0.022uF spares so used a NOS 0.022uF Wima MKS which was one of many capacitors that had been obtained through the Forum.

The original C30 across the O/P transformer primary had 2 ratings of 500V & 1,000V, presumably AC and DC ratings, I used 630VDC Polypropylene as replacement.

There remains 2 more Wilma capacitors to replace C8 & C29 both 0.25uF 500V for the screen grids of the EF86 & EL84. Think I have found C8 a large Wima clamped to the underside of the amplifier module (below the EF86 area). Unable to see/access the clamp securing, so cannot remove the capacitor so will cut off the wires at the capacitor and fit new replacement, that is a lot smaller than original so should fit local at the EF 86 valve base.

Really struggling to locate C29 for the EL84, it should be the same large size as C8 so ought to be visible somewhere.

While replacing capacitors at the output transformer found that resistor R37 (2K 1Watt) is open circuit, this is HT resistor from the bridge rectifier. Nothing suitable so have ordered one (10 actually minimum order).

David
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Old 27th Jun 2022, 8:34 pm   #7
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Default Re: Grundig TK 8/3D Check Out

Confirmed by continuity checks that the found capacitor was indeed C8 and managed to remove its clamp and get rid of the old C8. Fitted a new C8 at the EF 86 valve base area.

The old C8 measured very high at 16uF but with good ESR ?

Still struggling to locate the remaining Wilma capacitor C29. Found the HT resistor to the EL 84 Screen grid R31, a 100k (parts list on schematic incorrectly lists it as 100 Ohm) 1 watt, it is quite a large red resistor mounted on a terminal strip near the underside end of the motor.

There are 3 wires leaving R31, the red wire takes the HT supply to the EL 84 screen grid (pin 5) the other wires (yellow) should connect the HT supply to the 0.25uF decoupler C29 and also to contact 1.4 of the selector switch.

Am finding it almost impossible to physically trace the 2 yellow wires. Getting a very high capacitance reading around 64uF at the EL 84 screen grid (valve removed) which should be C29 down to ground.

David
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Old 28th Jun 2022, 9:15 am   #8
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Default Re: Grundig TK 8/3D Check Out

Located C29, it was hidden under the chassis top frame near Take Up spool area.

Sitting on top of 2 tubular electrolytics and all 3 clamped down to chassis. Impossible to access/remove the clamp so cut off the wires at C29 and will leave he capacitor in place.

Have fitted new replacement C29 at terminal strip where R37 is situated.

David
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Old 29th Jun 2022, 10:04 am   #9
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Default Re: Grundig TK 8/3D Check Out

Powered up (mains voltage only as do not yet have replacement HT resistor) all OK, motor runs well (does not run in Stop position, which is correct).

On 5 3/4" and smaller spools all the tape transport operations work pretty well. But on 7" spools fast wind in both directions struggles when spool in winding direction is heavily loaded with tape. Somewhat better (but still not good) when tape speed is set to 7.5 i.p.s. when the motor runs faster.

Very difficult to see/work out the cause, for rewind it looks like the drive belt is slipping, i.e. belt too slack.

Lifted up the heads plate assembly to better see the belts etc. The main 2 belts maybe are a little slack but not bad.

Cleaned up the belts which were greasy, also cleaned the idler wheels and drive pulleys.

Found that the left hand brake arm was very stiff on its pivot so stripped cleaned and lubricated. Also loosened up 3 rollers.

With the head plate assembly lifted can see the underside of the Playback/Record head and can see that the cable from the mystery socket is wired direct to the head, i.e. no other cables involved.

Cleaned and lubricated the Rewind and Selector switch assemblies.

Re-assembled everything and now both the Rewind and the Selector switch will not move at all so I have got the re-assembly wrong somewhere.

Dismantled again and reassembled but no change, cannot easily work out what is wrong. May have to get my other TK 8 out for comparison to try and help work out what is wrong.

In normal operation of course they do both mechanically interlock each other at certain positions.

David
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Old 29th Jun 2022, 2:53 pm   #10
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Default Re: Grundig TK 8/3D Check Out

Could not locate my second TK 8 but did find my TK 5 which is the same basically (not 2 speed).

From visual comparison could not see what was wrong so stripped down the Rewind assembly completely on the TK 8 and after re-assembling it now works well (must have been jammed somehow) as long as the interlock plate from the Selector switch is manually pulled back.

After trying all sorts the Selector switch was able to be rotated but it was not pulling back the interlock plate from the rewind assembly when Rewind position selected on the Selector switch. Another issue at this time was if the Pinch wheel assembly was fitted it was always being pulled to the capstan (like Play being selected) in all positions of the Selector switch.

After pulling and pushing the interlock plate it seemed to go into a different position where it now operates correctly and also the Pinch wheel assembly now only moves to the capstan when Play is selected. Cannot really see what was the root cause.

Need to reassemble everything properly and make sure it all still works.

David
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Old 3rd Aug 2022, 11:23 pm   #11
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Default Re: Grundig TK 8/3D Check Out

Re-assembled tape transport and now all working well.

Replaced burnt out/open circuited HT resistor R37 (2kOhm 2 watt), first checked for no obvious low resistance to ground on either side of R37. While doing this and checking the various connections I found that speaker dummy load resistor R43 (10 Ohm 4 watt) is missing. Also the push pull switch (part of the tone control) that should switch R43 in is defective, the switch is totally open circuit when the switch is pulled up.

I tried spraying contact cleaner inside the control but still open circuit. Also the switch contact that R43 should connect to, looks like it has never been soldered ?

Powered up HT all OK.

Checked playback (at 3 3/4 ips) of a World Record Club recording of Oklahoma, played back well with lots of volume. Sound is full and rich, not sure yet if the Grundig "3D" sound is as good as Grundig state, need to do some recordings of music I like and see how playback sounds and compare to other recorders.

David
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Old 4th Aug 2022, 1:21 am   #12
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Default Re: Grundig TK 8/3D Check Out

I must say David, EXCELLENT write up!!. Highly intersting and informative without being bored.

My first experience with Wima "toffee " capacitors, there couldnt have been many that migrated to Au. I did work for a german engineer for a while that simply raved about german equipment. Still havent seen toffee capacitors.

That Papst motor in that machine is "typical " of that era german equipment, simply beautifully made.

Joe
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Old 4th Aug 2022, 8:50 am   #13
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Default Re: Grundig TK 8/3D Check Out

Yes this type of Papst motor is a thing of beauty and they never seem to go wrong.

David
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Old 14th Aug 2022, 11:13 am   #14
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Default Re: Grundig TK 8/3D Check Out

Dis some test line recordings into the Diode and Radio/Gram DIN inputs (used 270k dropper resistors for the 2 linked stereo phono signals), recorded very well with the EM81 Magic Eye looking correct. Playback sound was very good indeed.

Not yet done any microphone recordings (need to find old Grundig condenser microphone) or done any playback comparisons with other recorders.

Checked out some of the valve electrode voltages and found there was no voltage on EM81 defection anode pin 7, this is resistor R32 (200K) connecting to HT1 voltage.

This seems strange as it had looked like the EM81 was working correctly. Had quite a struggle locating the fault, could not follow the source of the blue wire on pin 7 and from the component layout drawing could not easily see R32 (or R33 that connects to it).

Got a bit confused initially when looking at different TK 8 schematics as found that some show an EM81 while others show an EM85. Had to remove R3 Record level adjust pot into the EM81 to be able to see/access R32/R33 area. Found that R32 was not connected/soldered to the junction with R33 at a terminal strip. After reconnecting everything get around 40-45V at EM81 pin 7.

Went to do a recording to see what the EM81 Magic Eye now looks like and found a new problem. As soon as Record is selected get very loud howl/screeching (like microphone feedback) from the speaker, the same on all inputs/no input selected and with volume control at minimum.

So looks like something is breaking into oscillation post the volume control (input to first stage of the ECC81), so a nuisance, playback is still good.

David
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Old 14th Aug 2022, 11:37 am   #15
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Default Re: Grundig TK 8/3D Check Out

Perhaps that non-standard slide switch and coax has something to do with it?
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Old 14th Aug 2022, 4:32 pm   #16
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Default Re: Grundig TK 8/3D Check Out

Thank you Ted, I wondered that also, switching the slide switch a few times makes no difference to the fault, the switch switches the PB/Record head wiring though to the PB/Record switch and then onto the EF86 pre-amp input (Control grid).

Using scope can see a large 166Hz (6mS) signal waveform from the ECC81 right to the EL84 output pentode and out to to the loudspeaker when Record mode is selected.

The signal starts at the first stage of the ECC81 anode output but there is no signal at the first stage control grid input (which comes from the EF86 anode output via the volume control). Grounding/disconnecting the control grid at the ECC81 first stage does nothing to the fault.

More tests needed to work out what is occurring.

David
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Old 16th Aug 2022, 8:48 am   #17
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Default Re: Grundig TK 8/3D Check Out

Tracking down the root cause of the record howl is proving to be very difficult.

Found that the problem does not occur if the Monitor volume control R40 (the Tone control in Playback mode) is left at its fully counter clockwise position, but as soon as the control is moved slightly off that position the record howl starts. Prior to this problem starting the Monitor volume control was working fine.

Also found that by disconnecting certain components like C21 the grid coupling capacitor at the ECC81 stage 2 anode output the record howl/oscillation stops.

As long as R40 is left at its fully CCW position then recording and subsequent playback still work well. R40 still works normally as tone control in Playback mode.

David
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Old 16th Aug 2022, 11:32 am   #18
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Default Re: Grundig TK 8/3D Check Out

Can't help with the howling, but great to see the progress.

I've got a TK5 somewhere I haven't even looked at.
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Old 16th Aug 2022, 8:20 pm   #19
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Default Re: Grundig TK 8/3D Check Out

Forgot to mention that had tried disabling the Bias Oscillator (by temporarily removing the EL 42 oscillator valve) in case it somehow was causing the record amplifier to go unstable/oscillate but it made no difference, still got the record howl.

David
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Old 16th Aug 2022, 11:40 pm   #20
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Default Re: Grundig TK 8/3D Check Out

Been trying to find a home for the black metal lever that is sitting on top of the Supply spool carrier in the first photo. Pretty sure it somehow must fit onto the tape speed change bracket to the lower left of the spool carrier but so far can not work out how it fits.

Did various music recordings on the TK 8 and also on TK 5. On playback the TK 5 sounds pretty good, the TK 8 sounds a little better but not dramatically better.

David
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