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Old 26th Apr 2019, 12:36 pm   #801
ajgriff
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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........that someone claiming to be a grave digger understands the meaning of the noun grave.

Are you sure it's a noun and not an adjective?
Nothing in life is certain as you have humorously highlighted.

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Old 26th Apr 2019, 12:41 pm   #802
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

The fact that most drivers think they are better than everyone else remind me of the line in Dire Straits "Industrial Disease", at Speaker's Corner:

"Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong."

Regarding tone controls, Doug Self has an interesting design where there is switchable turnover frequencies, and a defeat switch.

Or the be-all and end-all, which was the long out of production Cello Audio Palette. Originally designed by Richard Burwen under contract to Mark Levinson. Burwen's design spec, design description, and his implementation is here http://www.burwenaudio.com/images/CE...IO_PALETTE.pdf . Levinson did not like the idea of lots of NE5532's and built the production version using discrete op-amps. Cheap, it was not.

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Old 26th Apr 2019, 2:13 pm   #803
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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I try to work out whether the individual is using the equipment to listen to the music or is using the music to listen to the equipment.
Good point! Sometimes people do use music to listen to the equipment - slow piano music is very exposing to wow and flutter - but after that, it's the music for me every time.

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As a counter-example, consider how most people (or, at least, most men) think of themselves as a better than average driver. It can't be true of all of them.
No, but it could be true of most. If there is one really bad driver and 99 equally fair drivers, then the average is below the standard of the equally fair drivers so you have 1 below average and 99 above average. (I'm assuming that 'average' means 'mean' and not 'median' of course).

Last edited by kalee20; 26th Apr 2019 at 2:14 pm. Reason: clarification
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Old 26th Apr 2019, 2:44 pm   #804
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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The only time you need an active preamp is if you are going to have, and use tone controls, or absolutely need things like tape loops.

Anyway, to be technically correct, an active preamp is actually a buffered passive pre (AKA volume control).

Craig
You need an active preamp if you play LPs with a magnetic cartridge as you have to amplify the signal massively and also perform the RIAA equalisation, before any messing about with tone controls (best of luck with that).
Well yes of course. You need active electronics somewhere unless you are using an acoustic horn and 78's as in the HMV logo.

The point I was trying to make is the output from most sources will be enough, without attenuation, to drive most power amps to full output or well into clipping.

... its overall gain from input to output will be well below unity if it feeds a power amp.

Or, for domestic non-professional applications you can just use a high quality pot-in-a-box (or equivalent, tapped transformer, tapped auto-transformer or optical) for short cable lengths.



Craig
This still doesn't address the problem of reproducing low level signals which also need re-equalising, such as LPs and 78s. As far as I can see pre-amps were introduced in the early days of hi-fi (very late 1940s-early 1950s) precisely because the sources available at that time needed amplification and equalisation. In addition there were lots of different equalisation schemes for the new LPs before RIAA became standardised ; and the circuits used for the equalisation were not particularly accurate as the components used to implement them were not the precision ones you can buy these days, so tone controls were included for the final tweaking of the output.
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Old 26th Apr 2019, 2:56 pm   #805
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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This still doesn't address the problem of reproducing low level signals which also need re-equalising, such as LPs and 78s.
Absolutely - it almost goes without saying, so I'm puzzled why you are labouring the point. I use a phono stage, which has the EQ and gain. There are almost too many phono stages to choose from, because there are many preamps which have no provision for a phono input.

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Old 26th Apr 2019, 11:36 pm   #806
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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Originally Posted by ajgriff View Post

........that someone claiming to be a grave digger understands the meaning of the noun grave.

Are you sure it's a noun and not an adjective?
Nothing in life is certain as you have humorously highlighted.

Alan

Don't forget it could simply mean someone who takes his/her digging seriously
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Old 27th Apr 2019, 12:10 am   #807
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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Or the be-all and end-all, which was the long out of production Cello Audio Palette...Cheap, it was not.
But next to useless it is as a corrective tool, whatever the quality of the signal path. A few fixed frequencies, fixed Q, and only the amplitude adjustable, in tiny steps. Now something like the Maselec MEQ-2 would have just as clean a signal path [I]and[I] allow you actually to fix problems.
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Old 27th Apr 2019, 3:05 am   #808
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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I think the dictionaries are wrong. I distinguish between an audiophile (someone who likes to listen to audio equipment, and in most cases look at it too) and a hi-fi enthusiast (someone who likes to listen to music reproduced reasonably accurately). The former will keep changing his equipment and in many cases is easy prey for the snake oil merchants. The latter will only do an occasional upgrade, perhaps when his income or the state of the art in technology make this possible.

Audiophiles like singe-ended amps with big valves and no feedback; they will display them. Hi-fi enthusiasts prefer push-pull amps with feedback, and are not too bothered what the active device is; they will hide them in a corner.

I thank Dave for deleting the bit that applies to me BUT as this whole thread says, WHAT constitutes a "phool" ?
In my case I love good music! As I type this post I'm listening to Lionel Long, an aussie folk artist of superb talent. BUT he is lost in the past as its "VERY aussie folk" . I guess to give my British friends an idea, its a bit like being a guest at a Morris Wedding, with 30 Morris dancers, ( did I mention two brewers? ) and 100 keen Morris-men and partners?.

So, I guess what I say is as my last post, I agree with what Andy has said!!
My cables are worth about $15 in total, TT is Garrard 401, Arm is classic SME 3009, Cart is Shure V15, speakers are Tannoy monitor gold 315's in origional boxes, ( Cheviot) amp is my own design n build. Seven watts RMS ( my tests) per channel.
SOUND
SUPERB, in a word. When I get my cataracts removed ( next month or so) I will continue my build.
New separate pre amp,
WITH separate power supply,
( incorporates RIAA stuff )
Power amp,
about 50 watts RMS per channel
( 4X 5B/254 per channel, ultra linear, or partial triode if you are pedantic)
~ about 14 dB feedback,
separate dual mono power supply with massively underrated toroidal power supply
same TT, arm and cartridge.
I have already overhauled the speakers ( and removed the wave change wafer switch, capable of perhaps 3 mA).

It will be my last build!! I hope the speakers will last the last mile!!

YES, I am a confirmed Audio-Phool and very proud of it.

Like what Andy, and tother Andy said.
My best regards to those peeps that measure everything and lose sight of the woods, whilst they are in the trees.

Joe
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Old 27th Apr 2019, 7:07 am   #809
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

That is a serious piece of kit, and even second hand seem to cost around £4k. Looks like the most recent version is called the MEA-2 at a list price of £4.45k plus VAT (so £5340 to mere mortals).

Heroic overload margin (29dBu), which corresponds to power supply rails of +/-30-odd volts. The only slight disappointment is the so-so output noise of -95dBu. Since it will almost certainly be part of a digital processing chain, that corresponds merely to Red Book 16-bit LSB. The output noise ought to be a whole lot less than that, certainly with a pro-audio product like that.

Craig
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Old 27th Apr 2019, 12:08 pm   #810
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

Hello,

Iíve been occasionally reading this thread.

Well, Iíve been working in the hi-fi industry for the last 30 years and the 15 years before that the professional (both PA and guitar amplifier) industry and I feel some of the comments are rather hurtful towards engineers in the audio industry.

Primarily my Job role is an electronics engineer but reading some of the posts I feel as Iím also an audio electronics engineer actively working in the audio industry, Iím a kind 'a second-rate electronics engineer - for want of a better phrase.

Iíve always felt Ė on the whole Ė this to be a welcoming Forum, but of late I feel rather alienated by some of the comments

My route into electronics was through playing with radios (or wireless) as young lad but becoming an audio electronics engineer makes me feel Iím not worthy to work with radios, which is my first love.

Finally, when I design audio equipment, I use a combination of listening and also using an Audio Precision analyser, scope etc., to track the technical performance. Itís a combination of designing something which fits the required Ďfamily soundí which technically performs correctly to enable it to be repeatably made in moderately high quantities.

I apologise if I upset anyone.

Oh, well Iíve finally said my piece and now I feel Iíd better get my coat

Over and out.
Regards
Terry
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Old 27th Apr 2019, 12:24 pm   #811
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

Please don't get your coat Terry. Your contribution is a refreshing piece of sanity and you should in no way be considered a second rate anything by any member of this forum.

Alan
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Old 27th Apr 2019, 1:58 pm   #812
kalee20
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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Primarily my Job role is an electronics engineer but reading some of the posts I feel as Iím also an audio electronics engineer ... Iím a kind 'a second-rate electronics engineer - for want of a better phrase.

Iíve always felt Ė on the whole Ė this to be a welcoming Forum, but of late I feel rather alienated by some of the comments
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Please don't get your coat Terry. Your contribution is a refreshing piece of sanity and you should in no way be considered a second rate anything by any member of this forum.
Ditto! Well said.

This Forum is brilliant, and has members of all sorts of differing skills.

There are people whose woodworking and French polishing abilities outstrip their electronics theory. But these abilities are all part of UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration, and their input into relevant threads is massively helpful! But they are nevertheless competent at fault-finding and repair. There are people who have a rare experience of low-noise techniques and grasp of the subject. Is that part of vintage radio repair and restoration? Probably not - but reading their posts is like a free lesson to those who are interested (me). No I don't know everything, I'm not yet a 'complete' engineer, I'm still learning too Terry!

Voice of sanity is helpful to keep things on track, and the occasional challenge is super.
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Old 27th Apr 2019, 3:01 pm   #813
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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Hello,

I’ve been occasionally reading this thread.

Well, I’ve been working in the hi-fi industry for the last 30 years and the 15 years before that the professional (both PA and guitar amplifier) industry and I feel some of the comments are rather hurtful towards engineers in the audio industry.

Primarily my Job role is an electronics engineer but reading some of the posts I feel as I’m also an audio electronics engineer actively working in the audio industry, I’m a kind 'a second-rate electronics engineer - for want of a better phrase.

I’ve always felt – on the whole – this to be a welcoming Forum, but of late I feel rather alienated by some of the comments

My route into electronics was through playing with radios (or wireless) as young lad but becoming an audio electronics engineer makes me feel I’m not worthy to work with radios, which is my first love.

Finally, when I design audio equipment, I use a combination of listening and also using an Audio Precision analyser, scope etc., to track the technical performance. It’s a combination of designing something which fits the required ‘family sound’ which technically performs correctly to enable it to be repeatably made in moderately high quantities.

I apologise if I upset anyone.

Oh, well I’ve finally said my piece and now I feel I’d better get my coat

Over and out.
Regards
Terry
My take on this audiophoolery thread is that it provides an opportunity for members of the forum to witness, share and comment on some of the many incredible, insane and downright wrong views and 'goings on' that some hifi enthusiasts get up to - they're commonly known as 'audiophools'. You know, the whole Peter Belt thing (google him if you haven't heard of him), that kind of stuff, commonly known as snake oil, voodoo or smoke and mirrors. Most of the stuff in this area tends to be put forwards and judged on a very subjective basis, there often being little or no scientific evidence to back up the claims that are made by manufacturers and users of this type of equipment that largely comprises hifi add ons and ancillary equipment.

Reading how you describe yourself Terry, I fail to see how you would fall into this category. So I don't understand why you're apologising or feeling as if any negativity or mirth is aimed at the likes of you, an experienced, capable audio electronics engineer? Or maybe amongst the 41 pages (that I'm not prepared to check back on) you have said something that you think would class you as an audiophool? Dunno.
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Old 27th Apr 2019, 3:21 pm   #814
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

I would cap the cost of equipment below £1000 for all systems that are to be used in a regular living room.
Above that half of the money would need to be spent building a dedicated listening room without any walls that are shared with other properties.
I was once asked to fix a pair of speakers and after rebuilding the cross overs there was no improvement.
It was the room acoustics.
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Old 27th Apr 2019, 3:21 pm   #815
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

Don't go Terry,

I for one have learnt an awful lot from fellow club members. Not just technical but grammar too! Some people pay an awful lot of money for the advice openly shared on this forum, I'm still learning and happy to share experiences good or embarrassing!

This thread has highlighted another world, some of it I've seen before and shared, some of it just wow! Plus in this thread, there's a fair bit of science from respected members, again, another world revealed. Who knows, one day I may reveal one!

Mark
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Old 27th Apr 2019, 6:54 pm   #816
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

Stick around Terry.

You have certainly not offended anyone.

I got involved with electronics by playing with radios from a very young age... a battery powered valve set when I was about six. I survived boring lessons at school by reading RSGB books, quietly! I developed a passion for building oscilloscopes after I'd saved-up for a couple of years to get an AR88. Inevitably, I wound up in the test equipment business. The transition to designing was made by the time-honoured method of losing my temper with a crappy piece of equipment I was repairing for someone, saying "Hell, *I* could design something better than that!" and then proceeding to do so.

For some reason, the domestic hifi business seems to have collected an amazing amount of not just snake oil but also out-and-out bull. It isn't a victimless crime. I have a lot of sympathy for the victims, those who have only come across the snake-lubricated side of things and have been led into believing all sorts of unsubstantiated and even just plain wrong stuff.

If I hear something unexpected, I want to know what and why and I will burrow away until I have found and verified a rational explanation.

The professional audio industry has to be rational to be able to operate, but then it has to keep happy its clients.... recording artists with sometimes some rather strange ideas.

The people on here like the rational side of things. Ohms law etc work, and work the same for everyone.

Some of the wilder end of the irrational is quite funny.

David
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Old 27th Apr 2019, 8:41 pm   #817
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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Stick around Terry.

You have certainly not offended anyone.
Agreed by me.

There is (at least) one thing a "listening test" does, weeds out the the odd and infrequent misbehaviour of a system, a big "clunk" once in a while tha would not be picked up (or more likely not noted by the technician) for example.

My current amplifier for the HiFi one of those 15 pin "huge transistor" stereo IC jobs in a die cast box, works well and (dare I say) "sounds" as good as anything I have had. The "pre amp" is just a switch and pot affair, remote controlled by RF (saves all that pointing around of the remote), I used to have tone controls but all the available twiddling took away the time to enjoy the programme. The very best improvement in my "HiFi" is the remote balance control, great for tweaking the "sound stage" centre to make a radio play fit properly.

Oops, I have strayed off topic being rational...
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Old 27th Apr 2019, 8:50 pm   #818
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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My take on this audiophoolery thread is that it provides an opportunity for members of the forum to witness, share and comment on some of the many incredible, insane and downright wrong views and 'goings on' that some hifi enthusiasts get up to
Quite correct, intended as a repository for the more outlandish products that otherwise get a mention in other threads and then subsequently forgotten, hence the thread title. As is the way here, it has drifted somewhat, and many of the posts are of a more serious nature.
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Old 27th Apr 2019, 9:17 pm   #819
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

If this was a REAL audiophile thread, we'd all have to list every item of equipment we have (or ever have had) including every stand, cable and piece of geology in the footer of every posting...

David
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Old 28th Apr 2019, 12:42 am   #820
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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Heroic overload margin (29dBu), which corresponds to power supply rails of +/-30-odd volts. The only slight disappointment is the so-so output noise of -95dBu. Since it will almost certainly be part of a digital processing chain, that corresponds merely to Red Book 16-bit LSB. The output noise ought to be a whole lot less than that, certainly with a pro-audio product like that.
I think you may be misunderstanding how professional audio levels work Craig. That piece of kit will probably be designed to work at a nominal operating level of +4dBu and peak levels would be somewhat higher. If it was feeding a digital system then the analogue level for 0dBFS would probably be somewhere between +18 and +24dBu. So you end up with a dynamic range into the ADC of something like 119dB which is better than all but the highest performance convertors.
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