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Old 19th Jan 2023, 9:33 pm   #61
Nickthedentist
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

Fascinating, Lucien. I wonder how many run or the mill electricians known that?!
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Old 19th Jan 2023, 9:59 pm   #62
Lucien Nunes
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

Nick, sorry if you were replying to my post about inter-core capacitance, it was actually riddled with errors from a botched cut-n-paste rehash, so I've taken it down for maintenance!
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Old 19th Jan 2023, 10:13 pm   #63
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

Look forward to the revised version then
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Old 20th Jan 2023, 11:41 am   #64
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

In Sweden the wiring regulations used to be available online, but now they are explicitly not available due to the hazards of non-qualified electricians, including well intentioned amateurs like myself.

Having rewired two UK houses before I came here I ended up with a hybrid approach based on my understanding of why certain regulations exist.

I am allowed to rewire over here, and all the materials are freely available, but I expect I will have to get an inspection at some point in order to sell the property. The exception to the rule is 3 phase, which is not encouraged, and I did have a nasty experience with that one time.

3 phase is great because the cabling for something like a cooker is so much easier. Multistrand 2.5mm2 is nice and easy to feed in the 20mm2 plastic conduit tubes we use here. (20mm for 16A, 16mm for up to 10A). In fact with 5 wires no wire consumes more than 10A, compared to the 30A rating needed for 3 wires.

The rule for lighting tails (is the the term?) is 'any colour that is not blue (L) or green/yellow (E). The feed is brown and goes to a specialised junction box (el takdosa) that is under the ceiling rose, usually alternate depths from 28mm to 45mm. I usually end up with Yellow, orange and white, which do not have any significance, and it makes multi-switch light switches a lot easier to wire with different circuits in different colours, especially cable runs for landings and stair cases.

The UK system seems very archaic to me now. I used to think that fuses in plugs was such a great idea, but no Swedish house has more than 10A on any circuit, with many circuits so none get overloaded, and a centralised RCD with a zoned consumer unit, so it is impossible to trip a fridge when a light blows. The UK system with its one or two 30 amp rings, 6A for lighting, is an artifact of the days that houses caught fire due to people plugging accessories into light fittings, with red hot wires being fanned by the breezes in attics.

I suppose we can't be too far now from having dedicated 12V circuits in new houses? 240V is only really needed in the kitchen and for heating now I suppose.
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Old 20th Jan 2023, 2:04 pm   #65
Lucien Nunes
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

Some interesting points and comparisons there.

Quote:
240V is only really needed in the kitchen and for heating now I suppose.
Whilst by number the greater proportion of devices plugged in these days are low power and could be served by ELV sockets, IMO there are still too many applications requiring LV to be able to exclude 230V sockets from areas of the property. Even with the prevalence of rechargeable vacuum cleaners - previously the classic example of an appliance that needed to be plugged in everywhere - there are many that will never be rechargeable and don't have a dedicated location of use e.g. irons, hairdryers, dehumidifiers, steam cleaners. If there's a need for 230V throughout, it's hard to make an argument for overlaying a second ELV installation, so we get the halfway house of installed ELV PSU's like USB sockets. At the moment these are not well implemented, many are on 24/7 so have finite lives but importantly make electrical testing harder as there are loads permanently connected to the circuit. Better USB sockets with automatic or manual switching, and possibly versions with a higher output at multiple voltages, might be the answer, with all final circuits remaning at 230V.

Quote:
The rule for lighting tails (is the the term?) is 'any colour that is not blue (L) or green/yellow (E).
Singles? As in single-core cables used in conduit. (Tails normally refers only to the single-core cables either side of the meter). I like this principle of using any non-neutral and non-earth colour for line; various countries use it and it is recognised to an extent under BS7671. In some schemes there is a preference for specific colour according to function, e.g. orange or purple for 2-way switch strappers. My impression is that locales that typically use all-masonry construction often favour conduit, which favours singles, which favours use of diverse colours. Somewhere like the US or UK with a lot of housing stock built with stud partitions and wooden floors, tends to have sheathed cables instead of singles in conduit, leading to pre-determined colour combinations in the cables on sale. We tend to be quite penny-pinching, even dual-red twin & earth for switch drops doesn't sell well and no-one wants to carry an extra roll on the van.

Quote:
In fact with 5 wires no wire consumes more than 10A, compared to the 30A rating needed for 3 wires.
Yes indeed, high power loads are a breeze with 3-phase. And you can plug something like a cooker in with a compact 5-pin plug like Perilex, or its local equivalent. Having personally done both, the idea of wrestling 10mm² T+E into DP switches and single-gang outlet plates is deeply unattractive compared to wiring a 5 x 1.5mm² flex into a 16A Perilex.

Quote:
The UK system seems very archaic to me now. I used to think that fuses in plugs was such a great idea, but no Swedish house has more than 10A on any circuit, with many circuits so none get overloaded, and a centralised RCD with a zoned consumer unit, so it is impossible to trip a fridge when a light blows. The UK system with its one or two 30 amp rings...
This is a complex topic in its own right and I don't want to wander too far from the original subject of this thread which is lighting circuits. Both systems (high current socket circuits + fused plugs vs. lower-current circuits feeding fewer sockets) have advantages and disadvantages. The relative merits are debated at length on electricians' forums. One point I often find myself making that is overlooked, is the advantage of diversity on a larger circuit. Sometimes, you can do more good with one 32A circuit than three or four 16A. But I won't go down that rabbit hole here.
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Old 20th Jan 2023, 4:09 pm   #66
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

As the OP related to lighting circuits in the 1960's, I remember that when my old mum did the ironing in the 60's. The Morphy Richards iron was plugged into the light socket above via a readily obtained BC Plug. You could also get switched BC Adaptor's that allowed the light bulb to remain in place but be switched off if iron used during daylight.

Ironically the iron flex hanging from the ceiling lamp holder was a lot safer than being plugged into a low level 13A socket as we find nowadays.

Of course, the iron was not earthed [scary] but then again it was the 60's & I was yet to train as an electrician.

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Old 20th Jan 2023, 5:31 pm   #67
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardgr View Post
In Sweden the wiring regulations used to be available online, but now they are explicitly not available due to the hazards of non-qualified electricians, including well intentioned amateurs like myself.
That's very sad and, I would argue, counter productive. Surely it's better that people have access to regulations. As various contributors have commented, some wiring schemes which were permitted in the past are not acceptable under the current UK regulations.

As an example, in any new work all domestic lighting circuits now need to be RCD protected, which certainly precludes PEN circuits and this is one of many recent changes. The Wiring Regulations now run to 624 pages and cost around £90 unless you're an IET member, which entitles you to a third off. Then there are the On-Site Guide and Guidance Notes. For an electrician to keep up, she or he needs several hundred pounds worth of literature. Appendix 1 of The Regulations is a list of "British Standards to Which Reference is made in BS7671" - all 380 of them! It's not likely that any one electrician would need them all, but should really have access to quite a few. As the cheapest is over £200, it's fairly certain that they're not consulted nearly as often as they should be. To make things worse, primary legislation, which is mandatory and quite rightly freely accessible, makes extensive reference to British Standards, which are not.

Anyone using past practice as their reference is likely to be badly out of touch with current practice unless they're willing to invest considerable study time.

Cue debate on Part P of the English Building Regulation - BUT NOT HERE please.

Effectively the discussion here has to be largely for interest only.

PMM.
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Old 21st Jan 2023, 11:34 pm   #68
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjet View Post
As the OP related to lighting circuits in the 1960's, I remember that when my old mum did the ironing in the 60's. The Morphy Richards iron was plugged into the light socket above via a readily obtained BC Plug. ...g
I have heard that a lot of houses had two circuits, one was metered (the sockets on the walls, heating) but the lights were not. Hence those adaptors you are referring to are known as 'Eltjuvar' (Electricity thieves) in Sweden.
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 12:33 am   #69
Lucien Nunes
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

I'm not sure how many different schemes there were for differential tariffs for lighting and power, and what methods were used to segregate the circuits. Italy, IIRC, sometimes had different voltages for the prese luce (lighting) and forza (power) and still has two sizes of plug (10A and 16A) left over from that distinction although now always 230V. I would be interested to hear of others as I seem to have forgotten what little I knew on the subject.
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 12:53 pm   #70
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

Many parts of Europe used three phase, 4 wire mains at 127/220 volts. 127 volts for lighting and 220 volts for power.
Other places had single phase, 3 wire supplies at 110/220 volts, used similarly.
Also 3 wire DC at 110/220 volts.

Back in the day, the lower voltage was preferable for lighting. 110 volt 25 watt lamps were cheaper and more efficient than 220 volt 25 watt lamps.

Europe is now almost standardised on 3 phase, 4 wire at 230/400 volts. A few legacy systems probably still exist.

In the UK mains supplies of 110/115/120 volts largely "went out with the war" and even before the war higher voltage supplies were in the majority.
Old lamp catalogues list a variety of low wattage lamps in odd voltages. For example 70 and 80 volt 15 watt candle bulbs, intended for burning 3 in series on 210 volt or 240 volt mains.
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Old 23rd Jan 2023, 7:51 pm   #71
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardgr View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjet View Post
As the OP related to lighting circuits in the 1960's, I remember that when my old mum did the ironing in the 60's. The Morphy Richards iron was plugged into the light socket above via a readily obtained BC Plug. ...g
I have heard that a lot of houses had two circuits, one was metered (the sockets on the walls, heating) but the lights were not. Hence those adaptors you are referring to are known as 'Eltjuvar' (Electricity thieves) in Sweden.
That's interesting Richard,

Alas, my mum had to use the BC Adaptor because our house had absolutely no power sockets.... but that's a story for another post.

Rog
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Old 23rd Jan 2023, 9:38 pm   #72
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

That was common practice in the US as well!
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Old 3rd Feb 2023, 5:11 pm   #73
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by broadgage View Post
Many parts of Europe used three phase, 4 wire mains at 127/220 volts. 127 volts for lighting and 220 volts for power.
Other places had single phase, 3 wire supplies at 110/220 volts, used similarly.
Also 3 wire DC at 110/220 volts.

Back in the day, the lower voltage was preferable for lighting. 110 volt 25 watt lamps were cheaper and more efficient than 220 volt 25 watt lamps.

Europe is now almost standardised on 3 phase, 4 wire at 230/400 volts. A few legacy systems probably still exist.

In the UK mains supplies of 110/115/120 volts largely "went out with the war" and even before the war higher voltage supplies were in the majority.
Old lamp catalogues list a variety of low wattage lamps in odd voltages. For example 70 and 80 volt 15 watt candle bulbs, intended for burning 3 in series on 210 volt or 240 volt mains.
The electrical system in Mexico is mostly 127/220 volts, 60hz. It was formerly 110/190 volts, both derived from three phase sources. 50hz was available in some aeras.
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Old 19th Feb 2023, 1:23 am   #74
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjet View Post
Hi Duncan,

Forgot to mention that the Timeguard unit actually replaces the light switch.

So I would assume that when Timeguard OFF, the internal resistor in the is in series with the filament of the bulb [load] so in essence we have a potential divider circuit with the volt drop across the Timeguard resistor powering the electronics. As you say when the Timeguard switches to ON this is via a Triac so there will be enough residual non duty power via the internal resistor to keep the control electronics happy.

Only a theory ?

Rog
Those were rather common in the US. They weren't intended to handle an inductive load!
A friend that had a large fluorescent sign on his shop had a lot of ballast and lamp failures! I noticed that he had one of those type time switches. I relpaced the time switch with one that used a relay to switch the load. He never had much of a problem since!
Today, maybe it wouldn't be too much of a problem because some of the ballasts are electronic.
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Old 19th Feb 2023, 12:34 pm   #75
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

In fact electronic ballasts often have a very large inrush current which will need an inrush inhibitor to avoid trouble with relay contacts.

PMM
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Old 23rd Feb 2023, 12:05 am   #76
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

My uncle told me he put power sockets in his mother in laws house because in winter they had a bowl fire the radio and sometimes the iron and a bulb all running from the parlour light fitting the flex was gently smoking away he was told oh it always does that! The fuse was a nail to allow a bit more than 5 amps honestly some people!
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Old 24th Mar 2023, 11:25 am   #77
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

I found some very odd wiring in the home of a neighbour.
Two way switching with one switch at the bottom of the stairs and one at the top.
Twin cable from fuse to downstairs lamp, black to one side of lamp, red to common of 2 way, 3 terminal switch. 3 core cable to upstairs switch, blue and yellow cores used as strappers to upstairs 2 way three terminal switch.

Upstairs lamp connected between common terminal of switch and red core of cable.

This of course worked to an extent, but meant that the lamps were in series and therefore gave a miserable dim light.

For a bonus point, suggest a cheap and safe way of rectifying this, without running new cable which would be very destructive of decorations.
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Old 24th Mar 2023, 12:13 pm   #78
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

I believe that series-operation of low-wattage lamps was originally a necessity because of difficulties in drawing tungsten thin enough to make low wattage 240V bulbs. Series burning of low voltage bulbs does however have the advantage of greater luminance efficiency, as lower voltage bulbs produce more light than higher-voltage bulbs of the same wattage. The 1911 GEC catalogue includes a range of light fittings with lampholders wired in series for chandeliers and other applications requiring multiple low-wattage bulbs, and low-voltage bulbs intended for series burning were available in matched pairs. Transformers for powering low voltage bulbs were also available.
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Old 24th Mar 2023, 12:40 pm   #79
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

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For a bonus point, suggest a cheap and safe way of rectifying this, without running new cable which would be very destructive of decorations.
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=199281
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Old 24th Mar 2023, 12:53 pm   #80
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

No form of wireless remote control was used as not readily available at the time.
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