Is Radio as we know it obsolescent?

[Radio Wrangler]

I used to have a little Philips bedside radio.

Turn the knob and watch a pointer on a string tuning. LW MW VHF. It used the mains cable as the VHF antenna. It worked well, but suffered form a tiny speaker. Big touch switch on top to kill the alarm. Small click stitch would set the radio going for an hour, hold to decrease the doze-off time.

Eventually time took its toll and it got rather tatty looking.

So I went on the hunt for a replacement. The tiny speaker was the prime improvement I wanted. It needed to handle DAB because with all the force-feeding push, who knew when they'd pull the plug on VHF?

So, I bought a Roberts Colourstream.

Great speakers
Seriously disappointing on DAB you can really hear the treble cut and reduced data rate on some stations. Sensitivity is awful, it has a large telescopic whip which has to be angled just so, else multiplexes drop out. It gets in the way.
It does internet radio off of my wifi. This works well and I can get noticeably better sound than DAB. However, there are drop outs and periodically I have to get tough with it to restore connection to the router. There are some marvellous stations out there, the challenge is finding them. Changing stations is tedious going up and down menus on a tiny touch screen. There is a knob, but that seems reserved for volume only. Grrrr!

So, what about VHF?

Yes it does receive VHF stereo.... sort of. THe performance compared to the little Philips cheapie is very obviously inferior. Careful orientation of the big whip gets me a noisy signal where older receivers manage a quieting level that puts the noise below the threshold of noticeability. The Roberts has it making the signal unlistenable. Obviously a highly integrated FM receiver got included so a tick box could be ticked "Does it have VHF-FM receiver? TICK!" Sadly there was no tick box for whether it was good enough to be used.

Ergonomics?

Lousy. Want to change channels on DAB or internet and it's several pokes at the small touch screen. Want to make the radio play on a timer while you doze off? several pokes at the touch screen. There is a button on the tiny remote control, but I won't be able to use that again until I move furniture and find the thing!

The Roberts Colourstream was expensive. It needs a couple of quids worth of more buttons and a knob to make it useable. VHF/FM, they needn't have bothered.

For stationary use, I think the DAB era is ending. For battery radios, VHF and MW look to be changing to local stations.

I thought the government relied on R4 LW national coverage, and everyone having a battery receiver, to tell us when to break out the treacle and brown paper?

Anyway, I think that buying a good radio is a rather difficult feat nowadays.

David

[Uncle Bulgaria]

I can't say I've delved into Internet Radio. If there's nothing on R4 or R3 then I just turn it off and wait a bit. I was under the impression it was just someone playng their music collection at random. What I like about the BBC model is the editorial oversight and resources. I know there'll be a good investigative journalism programme on, or some challenging new music, or just good intelligent conversation (the questions on Book Club yesterday were top notch). Are there Internet stations which are able to do that, or is it like syndicated American stations where all programmes are to sell something and the programming is an afterthought? As a relative youngling I like not knowing what's coming next. I don't want more 'choice' - so often a marker of declining quality. I want people I trust to choose a wide variety of programming to expose me to new things without losing my bearings, so I can incorporate it into my experience. I don't watch TV as I think the BBC has lost it when it comes to intelligent programming, but the radio seems a haven still. OK, Whitehouse and Mortimer Gone Fishing is well worth it, but where's the experimental spirit that gave us The Day Today? Has that gone to the podcast crowd? I was reading the paper the other day and there was an article on which podcasts were worth listening to. One apparently dead medium demonstrating its usefulness as an editorial filter!

[GMB]

Are there any DAB radios that guarantee the time delay to the sound output?

The fundemental reason for not using DAB in this household is partly bad experience, but mainly the "radio in every room" which works OK using old technology but is a disaster using anything digital due to varying propagation delay.

I think it is a huge shame that the DAB standard didn't specify a decode time so that the pips could be transmitted so that they come out at the right time.

I was an early adopter, bought the very early £99 Hifi unit that someone made, but it used to get confused by the configuration switching that radio 4 did during the mornings. Eventually it just started giving too many digital errors. You only need a couple of those to throw the radio in the skip.

Also, can you yet buy a DAB radio that runs on a couple of AA cells for so long that you canot remember where the battery compartment is located?

[Boulevardier]

Originally Posted by GMB

Also, can you yet buy a DAB radio that runs on a couple of AA cells for so long that you canot remember where the battery compartment is located?

That's what I'm waiting for too..

Mike

[Nuvistor]

Does anyone know if the time signal is corrected on FM stations, the information possibly goes through cable, microwave and satellite links before arriving at the transmitter, very often been through A to D and D to A, before transmitting?

[Julesomega]

What tolerance would you accept? We need someone with a non-digital FM receiver to stand in Westminster at 18:00 or midnight for a direct comparison
Switching to FM on a modern DAB radio uses a DSP device which introduces a very short processing time, I estimate about 10ms

[Al (astral highway)]

I worked for the BBC a while back. Even by 2008, they had stopped referring to ‘programmes’ and were describing everything as ‘content’. This was to mirror tech developments in e.g. Google. It was also a nod to the way that digital assets could be chopped up and re-arranged to make new content.

Radio sets are indeed on their way out. Radio content or programmes , not .

[Welsh Anorak]

It's interesting to hear how BBC Radio 2's news ident has now become 'on BBC Sounds, on your smart speaker and on 88-91 FM...'
No mention of DAB any more (there was till last year) and the frequency, Kenneth, is relegated to the end of the list.

[Nuvistor]

Originally Posted by Julesomega

What tolerance would you accept?

For general time keeping a couple of seconds wouldn’t bother me, I have nothing I know of that needs to be very accurate.

It was just a thought that most transmissions system up to the FM transmitter will be digital and require processing time, then there are satellite links that some stations use. It must all add up. If you think 10ms I will accept that figure.

[Junk Box Nick]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bulgaria

I can't say I've delved into Internet Radio. If there's nothing on R4 or R3 then I just turn it off and wait a bit. I was under the impression it was just someone playng their music collection at random.

I have an internet radio. It has come into its own as the BBC have steadily removed the content that I enjoy. I'm down to Radio 3 and Radio 4 now. Setting up the stations is a bit fiddly but if you know what you want and set up the presets then it's a case of turn it on and off like any other radio.

I use the internet to listen to music, i.e. jazz, etc., that is available only in very limited supply on UK terrestrial radio. My main choice is a US NPR (no ads) station with presenters who are erudite rather than projecting their own personalities. The time difference can make listening interesting but I rather like hearing their laid-back overnight show during breakfast and mornings.

I have half a dozen presets which covers my needs. One is set to the UK-based online-only Serenade Radio which is excellent, professional with many ex-BBC and ILR presenters and content that's vanished from terrestrial radio. Another is set to Radio Caroline as I'm well out of the service area here though 648 AM is receivable during the day.

Another advantage of the internet radio is not having to listen to the barrage of CV-19 info-ads that are now infesting UK terrestrial commercial radio and has seen me pretty much abandon the sector. I used to listen to Classic FM Hall of Fame but gave up this year because it was ruined by a 'Stay Home', etc., warning almost every break.

With DAB I overcame the 'sets all over the house' delay issue by buying the same model. The vanilla DAB ones were Pure and date from the early 2000s. For DAB+ there was a Panasonic available in the local Sainsbury's on clearance offer so I bought it. I liked it so I tracked down a couple more at another branch. Aided by the valid-for-a-week for above a certain spend book of money-off vouchers that had since arrived I got them at a very reasonable price. What was a fortunate discovery was that when listening to vanilla DAB on the Pure and the Panasonic the delay seemed the same.

Radio 3 and Radio 4 are pretty much unique in the breadth of content they provide, though Radio 3 has lost some of the programmes I enjoyed (jazz again). My Radio 4 listening has reduced markedly to a few particular programmes and 'straight' news delivery, i.e. 6pm. The recently arrived Times Radio on DAB has some good current affairs coverage with some 'magazine' material thrown in. The breakfast programme is weak but during the day there are some good in-depth discussions. Whilst it promotes The Times newspaper it doesn't have ads, though some shows are sponsored. More importantly for me it eschews the phone-in and doesn't have the overt political bias of the opinionated presenters that are are a feature of 'let's have an argument' talk/phone-in stations.

[GMB]

It was just a thought that most transmissions system up to the FM transmitter will be digital and require processing time

It is not the fact of a link being digital that necessarily makes for the delay, it is the compression system that requires analysis of a buffer full of data, and doing the decompression is also hard work (hence also eating batteries) that makes for the big delay on DAB or indeed online radio.

The pips on FM seem to be accurate to mS because my "Rugby" time signal controlled clock changes its digit at what appears the exact moment of the FM pip. I can then turn up the DAB radio and hear the same pip seconds later.

[cheerfulcharlie]

I bought a Nokia 8110 phone for around £30...what an incredible bargain it was,and ideal for the shed.

It has an FM radio but also Internet radio, so it comes with a selection of stations from around the world , but (at the time) you could Email Nokia to tell them what stations you wanted that were missing and about a day later those stations would appear on your phone.. The phone uses Kaos a sort of a very lean Android operating system. The 'loud' speaker is very decent for the size of phone.
Plus a basic camera which is good enough to record the things you are likely to forget and a free Apps section where you even download a frequency generator.

The delay on Internet radio seems long but when you are in the shed does it matter?

Oh and makes clear 4g phone calls as well.

[PaulR]

As several others have said I use an internet radio connected to a pantry transmitter, and also connected to the front room hi-fi. For some reason I feel I "should" listen on FM and tend to do this for stations I can receive this way. I flirted with DAB but the Pure portable I bought stopped working after a couple of years and the separate tuner descends into bubbling mud sounds due to the lack of a roof aerial. I have started to fit class X capacitors across the mains on my AM radios to reduce modulation hum which is a problem when listening to the pantry transmitter.

The internet radio I have is a Logitech Squeezebox which is good because the remote uses wi-fi and can be used in any room. It is quite easy to set up but unfortunately Logitech stopped supporting them several years ago possibly because of the popularity of DAB. They could do with having a re-launch.

[Hybrid tellies]

I think with the uptake of Smart speakers which has given internet radio a huge boost will be another nail in the coffin for analogue and DAB radio.

For cars I know of people that stream on line radio stations from their mobile phones and then play them via bluetooth to their car audio systems as they drive around. It works very well without any noticeable dropouts and with the expanding 4G and 5G networks this could be another threat to normal radio networks, the only drawback is the use of the data allowance if you do a lot of long distance driving.

Coming back to normal radio I can get 6 AM stations 2 on Long Wave and 4 on Medium wave. FM we get about 12 stations with many more on DAB but have not counted them.

[AC/HL]

Our car radio has MW, FM and DAB. We're in an urban area with excellent coverage, and I find no audible difference between FM and DAB in practice (as distinct from theoretical). Most journeys aren't long enough to worry about variety, but as the CD player is no longer a feature, if I did only want one genre or artist some form of internet radio would be necessary. Obsolescent is not a one size fits all issue.

[Uncle Bulgaria]

Originally Posted by AC/HL

Our car radio has MW, FM and DAB. We're in an urban area with excellent coverage, and I find no audible difference between FM and DAB in practice (as distinct from theoretical). Most journeys aren't long enough to worry about variety, but as the CD player is no longer a feature, if I did only want one genre or artist some form of internet radio would be necessary. Obsolescent is not a one size fits all issue.

Quite. I for one don't think obsolescence really applies in this case as the mechanisms are so different. Our species is very quick to discard what works in favour of what does something very similar in a more complex and energy-intensive way.

The ownership aspect is also worth considering. I changed my car radio from a cassette last year, making sure to have a CD player (I'm going to mount a cassette deck under the glovebox for all those irreplaceable audiobooks...). I buy music physically because who knows when the server will go down, or the shadowy company behind the uploads will revoke rights to online music? The sound quality aspect can be argued until the cows come home (and in a car is probably moot anyway, particularly my leaky one) but there's some discussion to be had about how music and 'content' (chiz chiz) is paid for. Radio 3 is excellent in this regard with the BBC New Generation Artists and the various orchestras and singers. I don't see how this level and scale of 'civilisation' or perhaps 'civility' can be maintained by an Internet station, or an advert funded model, though they are likely to be better at catering to a specific niche.

Perhaps "Radio Repair Radio" featuring 'workalong repairs' is the next step!

There's also the issue of complexity. Transmitting radio is presumably simpler than the great infrastructure needed for mobile telephony data transfer (for listening to Internet Radio on the move) and low-tech enough to be more resilient.

[Hartley118]

I realise that I'm probably exhibiting a 'so last century' frame of mind in my definition of 'radio as we know it'.

Like, I guess, so many of us, my stereo system consists of a stack of standard width modules, including pre-amp, tuner (FM/DAB), CD player, and - yes - cassette recorder. On top of course is the turntable. Though some units are reaching 'vintage' classification, everything performs pretty well, feeding the Quad 405 power amps.

Now, I'd like to integrate internet radio into that setup. But how?

Sometimes I mess around with my iPad, plugging the headphone output into a spare input on the pre-amp. Then I have to select the right app, and find the wanted station (no easy station presets). Now and again the iPad decides to send me one of its 'notification' sounds, which can be disturbingly impressive through the stereo speakers. Instead of being a straightforward entertainment system, my whole internet radio rig is instead akin to those experimental radios of the 1920s where the techie listener had to work to 'win' the required programme after a lot of fiddling.

Does anyone have a solution to my problem? All I want is a standard width internet radio module that will sit on top of FM/DAB tuner, receive internet stations via the household wifi and plug into the stereo pre-amp so that I can switch to internet radio stations as readily as I do with DAB or FM.

Am I alone in my requirement?

Martin

[Nuvistor]

I don’t know if if this do will the job but it as a line out and digital output and not expensive.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Roberts-Rad...2083700&sr=8-4

[G6Tanuki]

My "Internet radio" is an old 'lightweight' laptop from the last decade, running Linux Mint: as well as playing streamed music it also lets me download and read/write content onto USB sticks for in-car listening.

[Its predecessor media-server-laptop also had a CD/DVD drive but since I got rid of almost all my CDs in a big-decluttering some years back I didn't feel deprived when the laptop's CD/DVD-reader failed]

[PaulR]

Originally Posted by Nuvistor

I don’t know if if this do will the job but it as a line out and digital output and not expensive.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Roberts-Rad...2083700&sr=8-4

Sounds perfect. I might get one