Radio Scrappage

[dave walsh]

Today's Guardian reports a "scrappage scheme" designed to ease the transition when digital stations are at 50%. Apparently traded in analogue sets may go to Africa or into giant re-cycling bins in city centres. The Lords Communications Committe has been informed that this is "quite a sensitive subject". Indeed, especially on here, so I stress that the politics is moderated as off limits.
Sticking to the subject, I recall that quite a few rare and vintage motor vehicles have been destroyed under that particular scheme-due to inflexible rules. It would be a shame if the same thing happened to radios. By the time this came in though, the relative value reflected in 20% of a new radio might be very small-hence a bonanza of items not really wanted for enthusiasts. In reality however, it might just be land-fill. Still it's easier to raid a skip than a scrapyard! Dave W

[Tim]

I was dreading this sort of thing! We need to educate the public now, and let them know what we would like!

Maybe there will still be a market for PP9's in the developing world.

[pmmunro]

It is a stated principle under European legislation on sustainability that re-use is a recognised form of recycling.

It would not be too difficult to argue that the activities of members of the BVWS and contributors to this forum often re-use electronic items and equipment very effectively.

Unlike those interested in classic car restoration and use, our interest has a single, clearly recognisable representative body in the BVWS. This offers an opportunity, which I hope is in line with BVWS policy, to lobby the appropriate politicians on the subject.

Perhaps it might be possible to overcome some of the legal issues and concerns over safety by having some recognition of "registered collector" status. Essentially this would be a undertaking by the collector that she/he would take responsibility for reclaimed items, their own safety and ensuring that the salvage did not become a public nuisance. Possibly this could be an endorsement of the BVWS membership card.

PMM.

If such a proposal did somehow get Government approval, (well we can dream), any safety issues at council recycling centres (tips) could be overcome by signing a disclaimer form available to anyone showing appropriate identity information establishing their status as a registered collector.

I can only compare the anecdotal evidence of Forum members with one council recycling site in Europe, and that is in Bavaria. There some regulars seem to be unofficially recognised as "re-users" and are even helped by the attendants to load up their pickings.

Perhaps if the scheme was put forward as an adult education/lifelong learning/community interest project that might appeal to one form of official mind?

[paulsherwin]

I wouldn't be too concerned about this yet. The pro-DAB lobby flies kites like this all the time. Nothing is going to happen until DAB takeup is much, much higher than it is at the moment, and there's no sign that this is likely to happen before any of the arbitrary deadlines that various bodies have proposed.

In addition, any incoming Tory government is likely to be less interested in pushing DAB as they haven't invested the same political capital as the present government.

Paul

[Aub]

Originally Posted by dave walsh

I recall that quite a few rare and vintage motor vehicles have been destroyed under that particular scheme

I'm surprised by that. I would have thought that rare and vintage cars would already be much more that 10 or so years old and worth a lot more than the £2000 on offer. Or is that not what you mean?

Cheers

Aub

[paulsherwin]

Please stay on topic folks. Threads like this are very prone to wandering, and if it rambles too much it will have to be closed.

Paul

[G8HQP Dave]

My understanding is that FM would be retained for local services, for which DAB is far too expensive for the broadcasters, and in mountainous regions (the precise areas for which DAB was originally designed!). So people will need to retain an analogue capability - this does not seem to be widely understood. The FM part of a DAB set is often implemented digitally and often sounds horrible. Once people realise all this, and ignore the smoke and mirrors of the DAB lobby, it may turn out that they will prefer to keep their existing analogue radios and just buy additional DAB ones too. I think talk of a scrappage scheme is a sign of desperation.

[Patrick Dixon]

I'd have thought that internet radio is far more likely to replace analogue broadcast radio than DAB - except maybe for cars, although AFAIK DAB doesn't work very well in cars and I've never seen a DAB radio in a car.

But I doubt that any government would want to fund new radios unless they can release spectrum and sell it off for other uses.

[Steve_P]

It's probably come up now because the House of Lords are looking into this at the moment. They did ask for submissions from the public.

Here is part of my reply to this:

1: TV Digital Switchover. This has not entirely worked and many working sets are being scrapped as a result of this. If you haven't got Sattelite or Cable, you are expected to buy a box to view TV now, and the quality and longevity of these vary dramatically. Here in Bolton, very close to Winter Hill, we got three of these boxes and they simply do not work - missing channels and blocking. With the Analogue system, the sets worked on their own set top aerials. Now, whether they work or not varies from day to day. This is not progress. Also, people on relay stations will not get all channels but still pay a licence fee. And who really wants some of these channels anyway? Setting them up again lately, I noticed a channel called 'Gay Rabbit'. I am not gay nor am I a rabbit owner, and I doubt it's that kind of rabbit anyway...

2: Digital Radio - Sorry, no go. I can get better quality off my Sattelite Receiver and the DAB radio has nothing on it worth listening to anyway. I can't remember when it was last switched on, because the quality is poor and our original FM radios give better quality. DAB is not going to be the new standard because it isn't good enough. The same system applies to any system, Digital or Analogue. More channels, less space, lower bandwidth so poorer quality. It's a step BACK, not forward. Add to that the interference on sets in some areas, no operation in others and you can see that despite business and large players wanting to shut off FM, and some shops not selling FM radios any more, there are millions of sets in everyday use that will be made useless. Would these businesses like to have their audiences halved overnight? And the enviromental factors of so many sets being chucked as well? The one in the shed or garage, the one in the back room, the one in my new car outside....

I hope that does not go against any moderator rules - I left other bits out of this version.

Put your evidence down to holcommunications@parliament.uk

The place you can go to look at how far they want you to go is

http://www.parliament.uk/parliamenta...unications.cfm

If you're going to moan, do something about it first....

Cheers,

Steve P

[dave walsh]

As Paul says it could just be smoke and mirrors or moving goal posts but I think it's worth keeping a watching brief. Some people said the car scheme wouldn't happen. In the end it did and fast! In that event, re analogue radios, it might be good to have an agreed strategy [as pm munro says] otherwise it could be the frustrating situation experienced by forum members at the modern tip expanded to shopping centres. Personally, I also think that the 50% target may be disregarded ultimately if it suits. Dave

By the way, I meant the [House Of ] Lords in the first post-not the ultimate moderator!

[dominicbeesley]

The deadline for submitting written evidence is 1 February 2010

knickers!

They kept that quiet.

I wouldn't be surprised if scrappage did happen. It has been perceived as a success for cars and civil servants and politicians love a band waggon to jump on even if the prospects for recycling and benefits to the economy for radios would be entirely different than for motors.

Dom

[Steve_P]

Send it anyway. You never know. Lete referrals etc, and date the paperwork 1-2-10.

Cheers,

Steve P.

[JoshWard]

I'm not sure. The reason the car scrappage was brought in was to boost the car manufacturing economy in the UK (let's not go into foreign manufacturing etc as it's OT for this forum) so I can't see why they would bring in the radio one.

I know individual companies offer 'window scrappage' and various other products so perhaps some radio shops would offer it.
The major difference is, we could still buy the radios. They are not cars so do not have to be declared scrapped as they cannot be unroadworthy! The car scrappage scheme (many classics where traded in under it, even members of owners clubs traded their cars in but let's not get into that too much here) said that a certain percentage of the car had to be scrapped but some parts could be salvaged (I know- I have some parts for my Marina that came off scrappage cars) so even if the radios HAD to be scrapped we could get parts from them.

As I have said, personally I don't think it would happen, and if it did we could easily save anything interesting. Especially with the one main organisation, the BVWS.

[cheerfulcharlie]

Originally Posted by Patrick Dixon

I'd have thought that internet radio is far more likely to replace analogue broadcast radio than DAB - except maybe for cars, although AFAIK DAB doesn't work very well in cars and I've never seen a DAB radio in a car.

But I doubt that any government would want to fund new radios unless they can release spectrum and sell it off for other uses.

That has always been the killer application for DAB dominance - vehicles- eh? because lets face it FM in cars has always been an annoying joke, its total kak . Medium wave was so much better at the obvious quality price and night time vunerability.

I dont see why DAB shouldnt work in cars and be far superior to FM? Maybe it has not been worked out how to screen it properly for as we know digital hates sparky things .

There are a few DAB car radios around, Roberts certainly produce them I think, while others do Add on decoders which you can tune into on FM /plug in on your existing radio unit.

[Michael Maurice]

Originally Posted by JoshWard

I'm not sure. The reason the car scrappage was brought in was to boost the car manufacturing economy in the UK (let's not go into foreign manufacturing etc as it's OT for this forum) so I can't see why they would bring in the radio one.

I think it best that we do not discuss cars or car manufacturing as this forum is dedicated to vintage radio, hi fi electronics etc.

There are parallels but please keep reference of such to a minimum.

That said, one of the 'goals' of the government in the scrappage scheme was to pursue a green policy, ie older cars pollute more than new cars.

The same cannot be said for DAB whose receivers and tuners seem to consume more power - unless perhaps that old radio is a valved one.

[G8HQP Dave]

I dont see why DAB shouldnt work in cars and be far superior to FM?

In theory DAB should work better than FM in cars, because it can cope with multipath. However, it might require a significant increase in transmitter power to overcome sparky things, microprocessors, SMPS etc. At least in a car the poor sound quality will be less noticeable.

I have put my two-penn'orth into their Lordships' inquiry. I heard about it late last week but even then it was a bit of a rush to scribble something down. My main point was that DAB is a downgrade and should be scrapped in its current form. Any more said here would be OT!

[Sideband]

Originally Posted by G8HQP Dave

I think talk of a scrappage scheme is a sign of desperation.

I think you're right Dave. Everyone I've spoken to that's bought one of 'these new digital radio's' has complained about poor reception and most of them seem to be switched to FM now! Not far from me in Coulsdon, there is a bit of a 'black hole' for radio reception. FM wins every time and DAB is a no-no.

It seems the powers that be are trying to force the public into scrapping otherwise good analogue radio's for commercial gain. Of course some people will take up the offer possibly to regret it later.

Rich.

[russell_w_b]

Originally Posted by Michael Maurice

The same cannot be said for DAB whose receivers and tuners seem to consume more power - unless perhaps that old radio is a valved one.

But extra power consumption at the receiver is mitigated, to a degree, by reduced power at the transmitter. I notice that the BBC DAB multiplex transmitter for Sandale (Cumbria) is 10kW, as opposed to 15kW TX power per service on VHF (five services). I don't have DAB, so I don't know how many programmes are provided per multiplex, but this saving is not lost on those who fund radio broadcasting and ever-increasing energy bills may, in future, be the overriding decision as to what sort of broadcasting we shall have.

[theoldtrout]

Cynical may be my middle name but the only winners in this scheme will be the manufacturers in China and retailers here – EU politicians have shares in these companies? Just how much of the average radio set would be “recycled” because separating different types of plastics is difficult and costly; recovering the metals is easier but still expensive and it requires a lot of energy. I fail to see how a poor quality DAB receiver, built by machine with SMD components so difficult to repair, is an improvement and incentive to scrap a usable fm set.

[russell_w_b]

Originally Posted by theoldtrout

'I fail to see how a poor quality DAB receiver, built by machine with SMD components so difficult to repair, is an improvement and incentive to scrap a usable fm set.'

No-one can make you scrap your VHF FM set, but the VHF FM transmitters can, and very likely will, be replaced on cost and efficiency grounds, making a 'scrappage scheme' appear more of a carrot to yer man in the street, inured, as he will be by the time such a move comes around, to AAC, MPEG and other compressed music inferior to that currently available. The listeners of the future shall know no better and care even less.

Good is only as good as one is used to... Depressing, innit?