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Old 1st Feb 2010, 8:54 pm   #21
wireful3
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Default Re: Archiving old domestic tape recordings

To go back to an earlier comment, chisel and stone is almost permanent but I would be happy with something less extreme. A hundred years or so would satisfy me.

I have a few recorded cassettes that I might wish to play in the future. I thought of transferring them to minidiscs. The players were a bit more convenient and the discs more compact but as a home recording system they have almost been and gone! I am quite relieved that I kept the original tapes.

I wonder how many sound recordings will last as long as written records in Family Bibles or diaries? Many people find quite these fascinating even after a hundred years. Hearing the actual voices would be even betrter.
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Old 1st Feb 2010, 9:08 pm   #22
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Default Re: Archiving old domestic tape recordings

I wonder how stable a medium minidisks are. I have always assumed they would be fairly fragile given that the data is so compressed and densely recorded. However mine are now reaching their 10th birthday and still seem ok...however all my minidisk recordings have now been tranferred to other mediums...just in case
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Old 1st Feb 2010, 9:46 pm   #23
Phil G4SPZ
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Default Re: Archiving old domestic tape recordings

Well guys, I never anticipated this flood of prompt and really interesting responses, so thank you all very much. I'll certainly take the advice not to re-use the original tapes, and will label them clearly.

I also own numerous audio cassettes, and VHS camcorder tapes of my own children which I have copied down to a handful of VHS cassettes for posterity. As for digitising for long-term storage, I confess to having a deep mistrust of anything digital, borne out of suffering numerous inexplicable losses and corruption of data, and endless hours of frustration and wasted time. The tale of the digitised collection of 78s that vanished, and the backup too, was a thing of nightmares for me. So, for now, it's a case of keeping the original tapes, with a definite strategy of retaining enough pieces of equipment in working order on which to play back every format. I am thus equipped with three reel-to-reel tape recorders, a couple of rim-drive 'toy' machines, several cassette machines and about six working VCRs, three of which being nice Panasonic S-VHS editing machines. If I transfer anything to CD, it's just as a listening copy.

I did indeed start out thinking more about the process of listening to and archiving old recordings of long-departed relatives. I do wonder, though, how to preserve these for posterity, because as someone said, they are of little interest outside the immediate (small) family other than to historians and researchers, who would never know they're safe in my workshop!
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Old 1st Feb 2010, 10:01 pm   #24
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Default Re: Archiving old domestic tape recordings

There are "Archival Gold" CDRs available:-

http://www.spaphoto.co.uk/store/acat...Gold_CD_R.html

The claimed 300 year guarantee should outlast most of us!

Regards, Mick.
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Old 1st Feb 2010, 10:18 pm   #25
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Default Re: Archiving old domestic tape recordings

I wonder how they have tested that those CDs would last for 300 years.... Thats quite a claim, after all when Phillips first launched CDs I remember well the fanfare of "Perfect sound, forever" and I think we all know that the reality is a long way from that...lol!
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Old 1st Feb 2010, 10:40 pm   #26
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Default Re: Archiving old domestic tape recordings

I think it's all been covered already, but here's my tuppence worth.
My mother was suffering with a bad back in 1974 and because she could hardly move she asked me to plug in our Grundig TK120 then recorded her memories of life in Birkenhead. This tape was starting to deteriorate so at the moment it's on minidisc along with another recording of her sister who emigrated to New Zealand on the assisted passage scheme. Both women are, alas, no more and my biggest regret is not getting round to recording my father's reminiscences, he has also now passed away
So get your elderly relatives to make a recording, on any format, before it's too late! You can always digitise it later.
Interestingly, the minidisc recording has a faint high pitched whistle in the background, possibly it's recorded the HF bias (which is supersonic ) from the original tape which was played back on a Beocord 1500.
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Old 1st Feb 2010, 10:51 pm   #27
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Default Re: Archiving old domestic tape recordings

Just had a thought Why not find a way of transfering audio recordings onto shellac 78's? Most discs made nearly a century ago are still perfectly playable (OK, not "perfectly" ) The only risk then is breakage.
Sorry if I'm being flippant. Couldn't resist it .
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Old 1st Feb 2010, 11:51 pm   #28
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Default Re: Archiving old domestic tape recordings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Band Heaven View Post
I wonder how they have tested that those CDs would last for 300 years.... Thats quite a claim, after all when Phillips first launched CDs I remember well the fanfare of "Perfect sound, forever" and I think we all know that the reality is a long way from that...lol!
You should be ok with commercially made discs.
I think the problem will be with the CDR, ie the one you made at home with a puny little laser that basically is just moving slushy dye out the way.
I would think (but dont know for sure) that when a CDR self destructs what has happened is that through temperature/chemical changes, the dye that has been moved out the way by the laser during recording has started seeping back into the path again thus changing shape.
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Old 2nd Feb 2010, 12:46 am   #29
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Default Re: Archiving old domestic tape recordings

I think there are several problems here. The first one is the fragility of the archive media/format. The second is the accessibility of said media in future.

I have had data lost on CD-Rs , minidiscs, and Hard drives. Nothing vital fortunately, but a wake up call. Tape has so far proved the stablest apart from the odd sticky shed case.

The more 'niche-formats' like minidisc, DAT, mini/microcassette and DCC are probably the worst idea long-term, as they were not as widespread as things like standard cassette tape, and the machines are often more complex and harder to fix. I imagine that thirty years from now, we'll be having the same type of conversations about, say, DAT or minidisc as we currently do about, say, N1500 VCRs - hard to find machines, let alone with good heads, and no spares available. What good is a perfect disc or tape if you can't play it any more?

I'd do the following:
-Copy the material to as many d¡fferent formats as possible, so if you lose the data on one , or the player becomes unrepairable, you have other options.
-Use the commonest, or simplest formats (like cassettes) and formats that have already 'stood the test of time' and are established. That way in future, your likelihood of finding working playback machines or parts is greater.
-Keep some working machines (choose the commonest, most straightforward models for practical reasons) and sets of parts for them. Check operation periodically!
-Keep copies of the data in various locations, obviously avoiding damp and extremes of temperature. Leave copies with friends, email files of them to yourself or upload them online.
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Old 2nd Feb 2010, 1:04 am   #30
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Default Re: Archiving old domestic tape recordings

I 'm re-assured that others recognise the technical dilemma as well as the social one. The gold CD's Mick mentioned [post 24] look good but at £3-4 pounds.. special occasions only. The Beeb used an equivalent MD Sony Prof PRMD-74 for daily archiving pre full computerisation [Big Band H] but they are £4 each also.

After James P referred to the ATIP code, I now know that it means "absolute time in pre groove". As far as I can work it out [not far at all] you use some software downloaded to the computer to check the spec? I presume that means, as I use a stand alone machine [currently Sony RCD-W100] for recording life would get complicated for me? I'll await more info to store in the brain-another short term device!
Dave W
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Old 2nd Feb 2010, 8:57 am   #31
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Default Re: Archiving old domestic tape recordings

This has turned out to be an interesting thread...

I would much prefer an analogue medium as one click/scratch will only ever afflict that point of the recording/archive, whereas with digital, one stray digit can lose the entire volume.
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Old 3rd Feb 2010, 2:41 pm   #32
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Default Re: Archiving old domestic tape recordings

I've used Plextor drives for years so I just use the Plextools program that came with the drive to check the ATIP code. Plextor have recently made it generally available so you can download it from http://www.plextor-digital.com/index...,viewcategory/

I suspect that those Archival Gold discs are actually made by Mitsui. I'm a little wary of them as I've had Mitsui discs go bad on me before. The most recent batch that I've used have error rates 10 times higher than the Taiyo Yudens but I've also seen accelerated ageing results that claim that these error rates don't increase with age (unlike most other brands).

One other tip - apparently blank CD's deteriorate fairly rapidly if left unrecorded and should therefore be used within 2 years of manufacture. I'm can't remember where this came from though so it may not necessarily be true.

Cheers

James.
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Old 3rd Feb 2010, 2:57 pm   #33
Phil G4SPZ
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Default Re: Archiving old domestic tape recordings

Yes, it has been interesting Wolfman and thanks to everyone who has contributed. The advice from Michael in Post #2 about not deleting the original is probably the best, and I also agree wholeheartedly with Wolfman who has highlighted the major weakness with most things digital.

Despite clever error correction, few digital systems can match the combined robustness of an essentially mechanical analogue storage medium and the human eye, ear and brain to decode the results, noise and all!
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