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Old 14th Aug 2005, 2:33 pm   #1
harvestgold
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Question Laws on selling vintage electronics at NVCF and other places.

Hello to all!

I had my first stall at the NVCF this year, primarily to ease the overcrowding in one of my sheds. I have also booked again for this October. My question is this. From a legal viewpoint, how do us sellers stand with regard to selling items not upto safety standards, and in many cases (eg tvs with backs missing) downright dangerous if connected? I know there is a general disclaimer given to customers of the NVCF, but would this stand up in a court, if one of my items caused injury? Would the regulations be any different if I were selling my items at a general antiques market or even on ebay?
I feel I did pretty much all I could in my last sale i.e. removing plugs and binding up leads with stickers saying "Collectors item only do not connect to mains without safety tests" and had a general disclaimer on my stall, but nobody else I could see went to this trouble - perhaps I am just being over-cautious, but in this age of "ambulance chasing" lawyers and stringent H&S regs, I still feel slightly uncomfortable selling the old sets.

Are there any ways that could be suggested to ensure that appropriate regulations can be abided by when selling this type of equipment without resorting to butchery of the set (chopping out wiring etc) particularly outside of the NCVF, e.g. local antiques fairs?

Thanks, Neil.
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Old 14th Aug 2005, 4:35 pm   #2
Paul Stenning
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Default Re: Laws on selling vintage electronics at NVCF and other places.

I believe the disclaimer in the collector's guide (which is given to all visitors and stallholders) and the copies near the entrance are regarded as adequate. The fair is marketed as a collector's fair and not a sale of second-hand electrical equipment. As far as I know there have been no incidents that have resulted in legal action.

If you want to make sure you could place a similar notice on your stall, but I don't think it's really necessary. Obviously remove any 13A plugs from items and bundle the cable up inside so that buyers can't just plug them in (by fitting a plug it could be said that the buyer deliberately chose to adapt the item to use it when it had been sold by you unable to be used), and be careful about describing anything as working.

The actions you describe seem perfectly adequate to me - but I am not a lawyer!
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Old 14th Aug 2005, 9:05 pm   #3
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Default Re: Laws on selling vintage electronics at NVCF and other places.

Big problem with this one. In these crazy days of 'claim, claim, claim' I think you would come out worse if a case landed you up in court. There are thousands of money grabbing lawers out there that would love to make mincemeat of a case involving dangerous equipment. Even if you 'won' your case the legal expenses would be out of this world. I NEVER sell vintage equipment to other fello enthusiasts and heaven forbid..the general public! I prefere to swap items or pass them on free of charge to genuine collectors that I have known for years. I have a massive collection and appreciate the problems of cash flow and the need for SPACE..It may be possible to obtain insurance to cover you for this. I owned a service dept for 40 years and made sure I was well covered in this respect including any mistakes I may have made inadvertantly on the equipment while working on it. I was more concerned about this aspect of insurance than say the shop contents or the condition of the roof. I could have afforded to repair or replace those items but could never have afforded the cost of a court case. Regards. JOHN.
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Old 15th Aug 2005, 4:50 pm   #4
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Default Re: Laws on selling vintage electronics at NVCF and other places.

Reading the comments John has made above, I'm left wondering if legally there would be any difference between swapping/giving free and selling old radios or whatever ?

If swapping/giving instead of selling would make me immune to prosecution in the event of a mishap, then surely I could get away with selling an old radio on, say, Ebay by stating something like "you are only bidding for the packaging but the radio comes free with it" ?

Maybe I've missed the point entirely, I dunno.
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Old 15th Aug 2005, 5:09 pm   #5
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Default Re: Laws on selling vintage electronics at NVCF and other places.

If you are paranoid then remove the mains cable or otherwise modify it to not-work. Then if someone gets hurt they MUST have modified it - so not your problem.
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Old 15th Aug 2005, 5:21 pm   #6
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Default Re: Laws on selling vintage electronics at NVCF and other places.

Thanks for your replies. I had a thought, what if one was de-solder and remove the mains lead from an item? The removed lead (if it were servicable) could be supplied as a "free gift" with the sold item. To reconnect it would entail a deliberate attempt to apply power, but would not cause a major hassle to a genuine collector. I suppose this, coupled with warning labels about safety is about as far as one could go without making the items worthless. This wouldn't really work with more modern stuff e.g. hifi separates, whose purchasers would be far less inclined to tinker with a soldering iron before they could use their purchase, but nonetheless, must still be of a certifiable safety standard in order to sell. I think, as Paul says, the NVCF has to be a generally safer place to sell our kind of goods, and maybe I am being paranoid, but I worked in a very H&S conscious work environment which entailed incredible beurocracy just in order to use a newly bought fan or desk lamp! I don't wish to be unpopular and I certainly don't want to tempt fate, but I have this nasty feeling that if sellers of goods of our type don't take steps to assure a degree of customer safety, the "powers that be" could end up taking measures that could prevent trading in non safety-certified 2nd hand electrical goods altogether, and that would be a disaster for our hobby (and in many cases, business).
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Old 15th Aug 2005, 7:11 pm   #7
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Default Re: Laws on selling vintage electronics at NVCF and other places.

Hello Darren,
You are of course right in what you say. The problem started when people other than genuine radio collectors started to tart up and sell 'old radio's' to the general public. Most radio collectors were involved with the trade either on the sales but mostly the service side. The safety issue was not a problem as the equipment was handled by guys [and girls] that knew of the hazards. The 'fad' for the public to own a 'retro' radio has resulted in potentially dangerous equipment [AC/DC radio for instance] being sold mostlythrough internet auction sites and 'antique' shops. Any person new to collecting obsolete electrical equipment should make themselves familiar with the hazards and learn how to repair the equipment themselves. The issue of safety would then not arise as the items would stay in the hands of informed, interested people. Its simply not worth the risk of passing obsolete equipment to the general public. Governments seem to be very eager to get rid of our past history and any excuse by way of 'dangerous radio caused death' stories would no doubt add weight to their cause. I would add that this also applies to other areas of collecting outside radio. Regards JOHN.
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Old 15th Aug 2005, 8:28 pm   #8
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Default Re: Laws on selling vintage electronics at NVCF and other places.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heatercathodeshort
Hello Darren,
The 'fad' for the public to own a 'retro' radio has resulted in potentially dangerous equipment [AC/DC radio for instance] being sold mostlythrough internet auction sites and 'antique' shops. Any person new to collecting obsolete electrical equipment should make themselves familiar with the hazards and learn how to repair the equipment themselves. Regards JOHN.
How many times on eBay have you seen 'plugged it in the valves lit but made loud buzzing/no sound' or like attemping to attach mains wires to the prongs on a Bush DAC90A. Will HM goverment decree one day that vintage electrical equipment cannot be sold or handled by 'non-certified' individuals
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Old 15th Aug 2005, 9:50 pm   #9
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Default Re: Laws on selling vintage electronics at NVCF and other places.

Hello Phototube [?]
Interesting point I think. Problem is if idiots continue to 'deal' in vintage radio, thats exactly what will happen. Members must decide if they are interested in vintage electronics for the love of it or wish to run a 'business' as such dealing in the receivers. If the interest is indeed to run a business then they must accept the responsibility that that entails including a duty of care to their 'customers'. Collectors can swap/sell their 'duplicates' among fellow members via this excellent site or other specialised vintage sites amonst ENTHUSIASTS. That should guarantee that some basic safety knowledge is known by the receiver of the vintage set. Plenty has been said on this site to guide new members in the right direction regarding safety. Any further queries will be willingly answered by fellow ENTHUSIASTS. Do not be afraid to ask. Regards. JOHN
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Old 15th Aug 2005, 9:55 pm   #10
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Default Re: Laws on selling vintage electronics at NVCF and other places.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Photo_Tube
Will HM goverment decree one day that vintage electrical equipment cannot be sold or handled by 'non-certified' individuals

If this ever happened, IMHO, it’s the Govt. that should be certified not the individuals . I think that time will come though, its the way it’s all heading
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Old 16th Aug 2005, 8:24 am   #11
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Default Re: Laws on selling vintage electronics at NVCF and other places.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evingar


If this ever happened, IMHO, it’s the Govt. that should be certified not the individuals . I think that time will come though, its the way it’s all heading
I seem to think that many of them already are.
If we have a united stand against such idiocy, we can make a difference. That is how Dr Mawhinney's 'possession tax' for vehicles was scuppered.
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Old 16th Aug 2005, 10:00 am   #12
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Default Re: Laws on selling vintage electronics at NVCF and other places.

I doubt that anyone could make a full time living restoring old radios. But with the demise of pensions and the suggestion that we must all work until we die there has been a growth of hobby-business activities - but I see legal and regulatory problems as a huge threat to this. Such pseudo-businesses cannot afford full-blown liability insurance or expensive certification schemes. If this gets any worse I think the government may be shooting itself in the foot by making such activities impractical.
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Old 21st Aug 2005, 9:33 am   #13
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Default Re: Laws on selling vintage electronics at NVCF and other places.

Interesting thread.


Whilst on holiday in Suffolk last week I visited an antique shop in a little village and right at the back was an unrestored Philips radio from around mid-fifties (had VHF) with a plug connected and a little note 'working'. There was also a very optimistic price tag of £150! I mused about the legal aspect of this at the time. Needless to say I walked away from it mainly because of the price and also because it was a 'nothing special' radio. Somebody will buy it though and may even try to use it.


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