Oiling Old Mechanisms - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

Humber888 · 15th Dec 2019, 2:15 pm

High_Vacuum_House's comment on problematic oiling of old clocks in the 'Repair Nightmares' thread got me thinking. Being more proficient in electronics than in mechanical engineering, I've probably been guilty of gaily lubricating old motor drives, etc, without thinking too much of the possible long-term consequences. Hence, I would be very interested in what are the Dos and Don'ts of cleaning and lubricating old mechanisms.

If I am allowed to use a specific example, I have recently obtained an old Horstmann central heating controller. This dates from probably the 1970's and uses a small mains driven motor through a proper brass gear train to drive the various cam-operated switches to control a boiler and pump. It's a NOS item and very clean. So, should I lubricate it at all? If so, where, with what and how much? Is Three-in-One oil really so bad?

Hopefully this thread can be general enough to not be off-topic.

paulsherwin · 15th Dec 2019, 2:33 pm

It is generally better to lubricate than not, and 3-in-1 doesn't deserve the terrible reputation that it has in some quarters. People distrust it because it contains unspecified proprietary additives, but it is really mostly petroleum derived machine oil. It will eventually dry out and gain viscosity, but that is true of all mineral oils.

Mechanical clocks are a specialised area of lubrication, but synchronous electric clocks are just motors and gear trains. I don't touch mechanical clocks and watches.

Bazz4CQJ · 15th Dec 2019, 2:51 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by paulsherwin

3-in-1 doesn't deserve the terrible reputation that it has in some quarters. People distrust it because it contains unspecified proprietary additives,.

I'm blissfully unaware of any problems with 3in1, but it is a general, multi-purpose lubricant and not intended for use in Swiss watches and the like. If I need something lighter than 3in1, I have some oil which I think is intended for air rifles, which seems to fill a niche.

That "Repair Shop" programme, currently on TV, dealt with a grandfather clock which had a mechanism which looked like it hadn't been cleaned or serviced for a 100 years. The next thing you saw was the mechanism looking like it had been made yesterday, but you didn't get to see anything at all of how it was done

.

B

John10b · 15th Dec 2019, 2:56 pm

I agree, I would like to see a bit more detail on how the final results are achieved, I do realise that they have a limited time.
John

AC/HL · 15th Dec 2019, 3:20 pm

We had a long thread appertaining to the repair shop last season. We're not the target audience unfortunately, so we must do our own filling in of the more technical aspects. Depending on how they are achieved, that may be just as well.

kalee20 · 15th Dec 2019, 3:40 pm

I tend to use clock oil for lubricating dial drives etc.

I did - years ago - get all enthusiastic about castor oil, learning what amazing lubricating properties it has, used in high-performance engines owing to its ability to maintain lubrication to near-molecular clearances (all true) so oiled a Grundig 2043-3D drive with it (two drives, AM and FM, a gear, couple of clutches). It worked really well.

Wind the calendar on 6 months, everything gummed up. Why? Because the stuff oxidises (and probably goes rancid to an extent too).

What did someone say about a little knowledge?

So now, please, someone confirm or refute my policy with clock oil. AFAIK the only thing it's hurting is the wallet, but now's a good thread to comment!

ms660 · 15th Dec 2019, 3:49 pm

My regime when I was in the trade was always 3 in 1 or similar, my advice whatever's used is regular maintenance.

Lawrence.

paulsherwin · 15th Dec 2019, 3:49 pm

Modern clock oil will do no harm in any noncritical application.

Before mineral oils became standard, machine oil mostly either came from sperm whales or castor beans. Precision equipment like clocks and sewing machines needed sperm oil, which was always very expensive but had low viscosity and took a long time to dry out. Household and early motor oils were based on castor oil which was much cheaper but which degraded badly over time, requiring repeated or continuous relubrication. Most machinery designed before the 1950s had oil reservoirs all over the place to feed fresh castor oil to the bearings. I worked in a newspaper print shop in the early 70s, and the 1930s era presses had literally hundreds of little glass reservoirs which an apprentice printer would go around topping up every day. There was always an oil film on all the surfaces which required care when moving about.

AC/HL · 15th Dec 2019, 3:55 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kalee20

I did - years ago - get all enthusiastic about castor oil, learning what amazing lubricating properties it has...What did someone say about a little knowledge?

I once read about it's use for household curtains...with exactly the same result. It really does pay to do your research.

ex 2 Base · 15th Dec 2019, 3:59 pm

When I worked for BR in the 1960's we had a lot of "mechanism" oilers. They oiled gears on equipment like Hummer 888 described. So much so, the gears eventually clogged up with fluff, dust and oil, the timers just couldn't work. Leave brass gears alone.

Hartley118 · 15th Dec 2019, 5:37 pm

I normally use "Windles Clock Oil" on mechanical clocks. For electric clocks I find " 3 in 1" good for the main rotor bearings to stop the noisy 'dry friction whirl' which can develop after half a century or so of use. Seems to cure the problem for a good few years.

A couple of years ago I made the accidental discovery that Servisol switch cleaner can be an effective lubricant for certain clocks. This may be regarded as anathema by our noble horologists on this forum, but I've never been a 'strip it down, clean and reassemble' kind of guy when it comes to clocks. It's the reassemble bit that I tend to fail at - they don't publish service sheets and I seem to need several hands simultaneously to get the wheels back in place!

Anyway, my lubrication discovery was a 'last resort' attempt to lubricate the outdoor 'E A Combs' clock on my workshop (picture attached). This is driven by a quartz movement which has to work pretty hard because of the weight of the rather large hands. Well, after 10 years faithful service, it stopped and wouldn't restart - and there was no obvious way of lubricating the sealed quartrz movement. What the movent did have was a small gap in the case - little more than a square mm. With nothing to lose, I applied my Servisol aerosol and gave it a blast. It immediately restarted and has been faultless for the past couple of years. I've since used Servisol on a rather more sophisticated clock - an elderly Kundo, one of those torsion balance escapement jobbies which was reluctant to keep going despite careful lubrication with clock oil. My Servisol application in this case was more careful, using a cocktail stick only applied to the pivots. It cured the problem and the clock has been reliable for the past year.

Martin

paulsherwin · 15th Dec 2019, 5:59 pm

Whisper it quietly, but you can also use WD40 as a last resort in cases like these where you don't have the skill or inclination to do a proper job. It will dissolve the gummy oil and get things moving again. Obviously you should re-oil the pivots and bearings after a few weeks if at all possible.

15th Dec 2019, 6:43 pm

Contact cleaner with lubricant is a very easy way to dislodge old grease and leave a thin film of lubricant. It is great on door hinges too.

Richard_FM · 16th Dec 2019, 12:31 am

I remember my Mum used to have a bottle of Singer branded sewing machine oil around the house. I used to lubricate the bearings on my Scalextric cars with it, as WD40 seemed too thin & it was easier to locate than my Dad's can of 3 in 1 which was usually tucked away in the garage.

Terry_VK5TM · 16th Dec 2019, 12:57 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bazz4CQJ

That "Repair Shop" programme, currently on TV, dealt with a grandfather clock which had a mechanism which looked like it hadn't been cleaned or serviced for a 100 years. The next thing you saw was the mechanism looking like it had been made yesterday, but you didn't get to see anything at all of how it was done

.

B

Ultrasonic cleaner and a "proprietry cleaning liquid" (dish wash detergent and distilled water with a bit of meths to stop it frothing), followed by a good rinse and then warm air dryed (or put out in the sun), for the metal, non fragile parts.

There is also another cleaning solution that looks white-ish in colour, but I can't get the fading brain cells to recall what it was

(my grandfather used to repair clocks as a hobby, although he didn't have an ultrasonic cleaner).

Karen O · 16th Dec 2019, 2:19 am

A vote of confidence in ordinary 3-in-1 oil: my HP printer started making rather distressing noises - juddering, loud 'clack' sounds and generally sounds a printer oughtn't make. Prints had distortions in them as a consequence. With nothing to lose I applied some 3-in-1 to the rod on which the print heads run. It took a few prints but it's now running like new!

Apart from the saved cost, I don't have to contend with buying a modern printer that demands internet access and having its own email address and all the other unnecessary bar locks that go with technology purchases today.

joebog1 · 16th Dec 2019, 3:17 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry_VK5TM

There is also another cleaning solution that looks white-ish in colour, but I can't get the fading brain cells to recall what it was (my grandfather used to repair clocks as a hobby, although he didn't have an ultrasonic cleaner).

I think you are thinking White Spirits, AKA Perclean in Australia (dry cleaning fluid).

It's very gentle on "bits" but cleans superbly. I have never used it with an ultrasonic cleaner.

Joe

paulsherwin · 16th Dec 2019, 10:52 am

White spirit in the UK, Stoddart solvent in the US. WD40 is mostly white spirit. It does dissolve gunge effectively, and is very cheap. 'Turps substitute' is very similar.

emeritus · 16th Dec 2019, 12:19 pm

I find that petrol lighter fuel is excellent for cleaning clockwork mechanisms. It even got the cheap Lorus battery wristwatch my wife uses when gardening, going again. I removed the mechanism after finding out how to remove the winder via a helpful YouTube video, stood it on end and simply squirted lighter fluid though the mechanism. It worked fine when re-assembled.

Mike Phelan · 16th Dec 2019, 12:45 pm

Clock and watch oils are spicifically made to 'stay put' so they don't go where they will collect fluff.
3-in-1 and sewing machine oils are made so they can 'creep' so are fine when that is the requirement of the mechanism such as a sewing machine.

15th Dec 2019, 2:15 pm	#1
Humber888 Heptode Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Bromley, London, UK. Posts: 702	Oiling Old Mechanisms High_Vacuum_House's comment on problematic oiling of old clocks in the 'Repair Nightmares' thread got me thinking. Being more proficient in electronics than in mechanical engineering, I've probably been guilty of gaily lubricating old motor drives, etc, without thinking too much of the possible long-term consequences. Hence, I would be very interested in what are the Dos and Don'ts of cleaning and lubricating old mechanisms. If I am allowed to use a specific example, I have recently obtained an old Horstmann central heating controller. This dates from probably the 1970's and uses a small mains driven motor through a proper brass gear train to drive the various cam-operated switches to control a boiler and pump. It's a NOS item and very clean. So, should I lubricate it at all? If so, where, with what and how much? Is Three-in-One oil really so bad? Hopefully this thread can be general enough to not be off-topic.

15th Dec 2019, 2:33 pm	#2
paulsherwin Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 27,943	Re: Oiling Old Mechanisms It is generally better to lubricate than not, and 3-in-1 doesn't deserve the terrible reputation that it has in some quarters. People distrust it because it contains unspecified proprietary additives, but it is really mostly petroleum derived machine oil. It will eventually dry out and gain viscosity, but that is true of all mineral oils. Mechanical clocks are a specialised area of lubrication, but synchronous electric clocks are just motors and gear trains. I don't touch mechanical clocks and watches.

15th Dec 2019, 2:56 pm	#4
John10b Nonode Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Aberaeron, Ceredigion, Wales, UK. Posts: 2,884	Re: Oiling Old Mechanisms I agree, I would like to see a bit more detail on how the final results are achieved, I do realise that they have a limited time. John

15th Dec 2019, 3:20 pm	#5
AC/HL Dekatron Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Heckmondwike, West Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 9,642	Re: Oiling Old Mechanisms We had a long thread appertaining to the repair shop last season. We're not the target audience unfortunately, so we must do our own filling in of the more technical aspects. Depending on how they are achieved, that may be just as well.

15th Dec 2019, 3:40 pm	#6
kalee20 Dekatron Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Lynton, N. Devon, UK. Posts: 7,081	Re: Oiling Old Mechanisms I tend to use clock oil for lubricating dial drives etc. I did - years ago - get all enthusiastic about castor oil, learning what amazing lubricating properties it has, used in high-performance engines owing to its ability to maintain lubrication to near-molecular clearances (all true) so oiled a Grundig 2043-3D drive with it (two drives, AM and FM, a gear, couple of clutches). It worked really well. Wind the calendar on 6 months, everything gummed up. Why? Because the stuff oxidises (and probably goes rancid to an extent too). What did someone say about a little knowledge? So now, please, someone confirm or refute my policy with clock oil. AFAIK the only thing it's hurting is the wallet, but now's a good thread to comment! Last edited by kalee20; 15th Dec 2019 at 3:43 pm. Reason: Typo

15th Dec 2019, 3:49 pm	#7
ms660 Dekatron Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Cornwall, UK. Posts: 13,454	Re: Oiling Old Mechanisms My regime when I was in the trade was always 3 in 1 or similar, my advice whatever's used is regular maintenance. Lawrence.

15th Dec 2019, 3:49 pm	#8
paulsherwin Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 27,943	Re: Oiling Old Mechanisms Modern clock oil will do no harm in any noncritical application. Before mineral oils became standard, machine oil mostly either came from sperm whales or castor beans. Precision equipment like clocks and sewing machines needed sperm oil, which was always very expensive but had low viscosity and took a long time to dry out. Household and early motor oils were based on castor oil which was much cheaper but which degraded badly over time, requiring repeated or continuous relubrication. Most machinery designed before the 1950s had oil reservoirs all over the place to feed fresh castor oil to the bearings. I worked in a newspaper print shop in the early 70s, and the 1930s era presses had literally hundreds of little glass reservoirs which an apprentice printer would go around topping up every day. There was always an oil film on all the surfaces which required care when moving about.

15th Dec 2019, 3:59 pm	#10
ex 2 Base Heptode Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Scarborough, North Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 510	Re: Oiling Old Mechanisms When I worked for BR in the 1960's we had a lot of "mechanism" oilers. They oiled gears on equipment like Hummer 888 described. So much so, the gears eventually clogged up with fluff, dust and oil, the timers just couldn't work. Leave brass gears alone.

15th Dec 2019, 5:37 pm	#11
Hartley118 Nonode Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Cambridge, Cambs. UK. Posts: 2,198	Re: Oiling Old Mechanisms I normally use "Windles Clock Oil" on mechanical clocks. For electric clocks I find " 3 in 1" good for the main rotor bearings to stop the noisy 'dry friction whirl' which can develop after half a century or so of use. Seems to cure the problem for a good few years. A couple of years ago I made the accidental discovery that Servisol switch cleaner can be an effective lubricant for certain clocks. This may be regarded as anathema by our noble horologists on this forum, but I've never been a 'strip it down, clean and reassemble' kind of guy when it comes to clocks. It's the reassemble bit that I tend to fail at - they don't publish service sheets and I seem to need several hands simultaneously to get the wheels back in place! Anyway, my lubrication discovery was a 'last resort' attempt to lubricate the outdoor 'E A Combs' clock on my workshop (picture attached). This is driven by a quartz movement which has to work pretty hard because of the weight of the rather large hands. Well, after 10 years faithful service, it stopped and wouldn't restart - and there was no obvious way of lubricating the sealed quartrz movement. What the movent did have was a small gap in the case - little more than a square mm. With nothing to lose, I applied my Servisol aerosol and gave it a blast. It immediately restarted and has been faultless for the past couple of years. I've since used Servisol on a rather more sophisticated clock - an elderly Kundo, one of those torsion balance escapement jobbies which was reluctant to keep going despite careful lubrication with clock oil. My Servisol application in this case was more careful, using a cocktail stick only applied to the pivots. It cured the problem and the clock has been reliable for the past year. Martin Attached Thumbnails __________________ BVWS Member

15th Dec 2019, 5:59 pm	#12
paulsherwin Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 27,943	Re: Oiling Old Mechanisms Whisper it quietly, but you can also use WD40 as a last resort in cases like these where you don't have the skill or inclination to do a proper job. It will dissolve the gummy oil and get things moving again. Obviously you should re-oil the pivots and bearings after a few weeks if at all possible.

15th Dec 2019, 6:43 pm	#13
Guest Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Oiling Old Mechanisms Contact cleaner with lubricant is a very easy way to dislodge old grease and leave a thin film of lubricant. It is great on door hinges too.

16th Dec 2019, 12:31 am	#14
Richard_FM Nonode Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Stockport, Cheshire, UK. Posts: 2,002	Re: Oiling Old Mechanisms I remember my Mum used to have a bottle of Singer branded sewing machine oil around the house. I used to lubricate the bearings on my Scalextric cars with it, as WD40 seemed too thin & it was easier to locate than my Dad's can of 3 in 1 which was usually tucked away in the garage. __________________ Hello IT: Have you Tried Turning It Off & On Again?

16th Dec 2019, 2:19 am	#16
Karen O Rest in Peace Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Bridgnorth, Shropshire, UK. Posts: 787	Re: Oiling Old Mechanisms A vote of confidence in ordinary 3-in-1 oil: my HP printer started making rather distressing noises - juddering, loud 'clack' sounds and generally sounds a printer oughtn't make. Prints had distortions in them as a consequence. With nothing to lose I applied some 3-in-1 to the rod on which the print heads run. It took a few prints but it's now running like new! Apart from the saved cost, I don't have to contend with buying a modern printer that demands internet access and having its own email address and all the other unnecessary bar locks that go with technology purchases today. Last edited by Karen O; 16th Dec 2019 at 2:20 am. Reason: Typo

16th Dec 2019, 10:52 am	#18
paulsherwin Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 27,943	Re: Oiling Old Mechanisms White spirit in the UK, Stoddart solvent in the US. WD40 is mostly white spirit. It does dissolve gunge effectively, and is very cheap. 'Turps substitute' is very similar.

16th Dec 2019, 12:19 pm	#19
emeritus Dekatron Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Brentwood, Essex, UK. Posts: 5,339	Re: Oiling Old Mechanisms I find that petrol lighter fuel is excellent for cleaning clockwork mechanisms. It even got the cheap Lorus battery wristwatch my wife uses when gardening, going again. I removed the mechanism after finding out how to remove the winder via a helpful YouTube video, stood it on end and simply squirted lighter fluid though the mechanism. It worked fine when re-assembled.

16th Dec 2019, 12:45 pm	#20
Mike Phelan Dekatron Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Near Leeds, West Yorkshire, UK Posts: 4,609	Re: Oiling Old Mechanisms Clock and watch oils are spicifically made to 'stay put' so they don't go where they will collect fluff. 3-in-1 and sewing machine oils are made so they can 'creep' so are fine when that is the requirement of the mechanism such as a sewing machine. __________________ Mike.