4th Apr 2019, 3:50 pm | #601 | |
Dekatron
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Surrey, UK.
Posts: 4,385
|
Re: Audiophoolery?
Quote:
Colin |
|
4th Apr 2019, 4:01 pm | #602 | |
Dekatron
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Lynton, N. Devon, UK.
Posts: 7,059
|
Re: Audiophoolery?
Quote:
|
|
4th Apr 2019, 4:02 pm | #603 |
Octode
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Staffordshire Moorlands, UK.
Posts: 1,464
|
Re: Audiophoolery?
Cheers Colin
__________________
Those who lack imagination cannot imagine what is lacking... |
4th Apr 2019, 4:28 pm | #604 |
Heptode
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Manchester, UK.
Posts: 709
|
Re: Audiophoolery?
|
4th Apr 2019, 4:35 pm | #605 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Oxford, UK.
Posts: 4,941
|
Re: Audiophoolery?
The law regarding snake oil is different in different countries. In the UK we have the Advertising Standards Authority https://www.asa.org.uk/ who have serious teeth. All it takes is one non-vexatious complainant to trigger a case. As a result of test cases the audio industry in the UK has to be massively careful in what claims they make regarding their products, and what precise wording they use.
In the US, always the territory of snake oilers, the law is very different, and consumer protection tends to caveat emptor rather than a formal regulatory system. Craig |
4th Apr 2019, 5:15 pm | #606 | ||
Dekatron
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Rugeley, Staffordshire, UK.
Posts: 8,809
|
Re: Audiophoolery?
Quote:
That would stop descriptions being unproven and downright misleading. It would also, for better or for worse, maybe take us back to the 70s when specs ruled the roost and descriptions were limited to less 'airy fairy' words and phrases. More about features and overall performance and as I say, no use of snake oil, smoke and mirrors and voodoo phrases that baffle, draw in and ensnare the unwary and unknowledgeable, but worst of all to make money for unscrupulous rip off merchants.
__________________
A digital radio is the latest thing, but a vintage wireless is forever.. Last edited by stevehertz; 4th Apr 2019 at 5:39 pm. |
||
4th Apr 2019, 6:17 pm | #607 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Oxford, UK.
Posts: 4,941
|
Re: Audiophoolery?
Playing devil's advocate here, precisely the same type of words are used to describe wines and whiskeys.
Why limit non-objectively proven attributes to a hifi product? "fresh and smooth, yet intense and with dark berry fruit" "edges of violet and an herbaceous freshness" "vibrant red fruits (cherries) and a structure of dense tannins that somehow resist rigidity" And you are not going to prove those statements, and they could be downright misleading...I might taste those and think they are redolent of a gorilla's armpit. Craig |
4th Apr 2019, 7:08 pm | #608 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Oxfordshire, UK.
Posts: 4,310
|
Re: Audiophoolery?
I'm with Craig (or, more exactly, with the devil Craig's advocating for) to an extent on this. We are not buying aircraft landing systems or devices for monitoring the medical state of newborns. Of the people who buy hifi those who base their requirements on specs are in a tiny minority. The huge majority buy them for the effect they hope the kit will generate inside their heads, and suggestion plays a large part in that, as with wine and whisky.
Where I draw the line is when sellers do make technical claims about a product which are demonstrably untrue. That should be against the rules and, in fact, in this country it is. The ASA has already passed judgement against miscreants. I don't think I want to know how Craig can benchmark products against the taste of a gorilla's armpit, by the way . Cheers, GJ
__________________
http://www.ampregen.com |
4th Apr 2019, 7:18 pm | #609 |
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Fife, Scotland, UK.
Posts: 22,799
|
Re: Audiophoolery?
Those that peddle to the phools are very careful not to speak of objective, measurable things. That would leave them wide open to action if what they promised was not demonstrably delivered.
Imagine if soundstaging was measurable and the weights and measures people came to call... "You sold Mr Smith four foot eight and a half inches of soundstaging, and it only gives three foot six. We'll start by looking at the calibration certificate of your soundstaging meter... you do have one, don't you? A certificate, that is, and its serial number matches the meter? It hasn't expired, has it?" Nebulous phraseology is what keep them out of the courthouse. Just watch some television and see how many advertisements try to sell you a product via an associated lifestyle, and how few make objectively provable promises. Wouldn't it be fun if a court set a precedent that a nebulous promise on one side of a deal could be met by an equally nebulous offering on the other side. So my ISP promises to provide me with "Up to XX megabits/second" and so I should pay them "Up to YY pounds per month" Sauce for the goose David
__________________
Can't afford the volcanic island yet, but the plans for my monorail and the goons' uniforms are done |
4th Apr 2019, 9:13 pm | #610 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Oxford, UK.
Posts: 4,941
|
Re: Audiophoolery?
Well there actually is a measure of soundstaging relating to concert halls. Suggest a read of Leo Beranek's seminal book "Concert Halls and Opera Houses. Music, Acoustics and Architecture" ISBN 0-387-95524-0
The key factor is the Inter-Aural Cross Correlation Coefficient. There are actually a family of them, defined by equations, and are related to spatial imaging. Craig PS Google is your friend http://orbit.dtu.dk/files/55752812/A...tion_final.pdf Last edited by Craig Sawyers; 4th Apr 2019 at 9:23 pm. |
4th Apr 2019, 9:31 pm | #611 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Oxford, UK.
Posts: 4,941
|
Re: Audiophoolery?
And another relating acoustic image width to IACC is here https://iaem.at/ambisonics/symposium...spatcorrsh.pdf
|
5th Apr 2019, 9:10 am | #612 |
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Fife, Scotland, UK.
Posts: 22,799
|
Re: Audiophoolery?
OK, perhaps I should have used 'Authority' or 'granularity' as an example. But I don't think the audiophiles mean something as simple as just the perceived width when they say soundstaging. They're after full three-dimensionality. Maybe positioning expressed as error vector magnitude?
What unit would we measure Authority in? Churchills perhaps? Granularity ought to be in 'Tate & Lyles' of course! David
__________________
Can't afford the volcanic island yet, but the plans for my monorail and the goons' uniforms are done |
5th Apr 2019, 10:02 am | #613 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Oxford, UK.
Posts: 4,941
|
Re: Audiophoolery?
OK - the full list of attributes of 100 great concert halls worldwide is characterised by a list of physical parameters, and other peceptual attributes. From the Beranek book:
Reverberation and fullness of tone Direct sound, Early sound, Reverberant Sound Early decay time (EDT) Speed of successive tones Definition (or clarity) Intimacy or presence or Initial-time-delay gap Liveliness and mid frequencies Spaciousness Warmth Listener envelopment Strength of sound and loudness Timbre and tone colour Acoustical glare Brilliance Balance Blend Ensemble Immediacy of response (Attack) Texture Echoes Dynamic range and background noise level Detriments to tone quality Uniformity of sound in Audience areas I think you can find plenty of room in those attributes to fit your Authority and Granularity examples, David And should you think that Leo Beranek (RIP) was some sort of snake oil merchant, have a look at the guy's CV https://ethw.org/Leo_L._Beranek Craig |
5th Apr 2019, 1:34 pm | #614 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Congleton, Cheshire, UK.
Posts: 609
|
Re: Audiophoolery?
Oh dear, you clearly have not read up on the FAQ's otherwise you would know that your cables require re-cooking for a few days every couple of months otherwise they degrade and you lose your soundstaging.
|
5th Apr 2019, 1:46 pm | #615 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Seaford, East Sussex, UK.
Posts: 5,997
|
Re: Audiophoolery?
Audiophoolery is several steps up from on-line casino's where you get nothing back for your money.
|
5th Apr 2019, 4:02 pm | #616 | |
Dekatron
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Rugeley, Staffordshire, UK.
Posts: 8,809
|
Re: Audiophoolery?
Quote:
On that subject I just googled 'cheap speaker cables' and came up with this (link below). Have you ever read such a load of old codswallop in your life? Here's a snippet: "The cables produce, for the price, an incredible hand clap. You may laugh but the midrange delivery of this sound is indicative of the rest of the sonic performance of this cable. The hand claps here are tonally realistic with a balance between the striking of the hands but also the detail that sounds produces." I must admit, he's a very clever man to be able to listen to a complete system and be able to attribute good hand claps to the speaker cables. Nice one mate. I wonder if there are any (very expensive) specialist audiophool therapists who can help the sufferer come down from audiophool meltdown and become a stable, rational hifi enthusiast who enjoys listening to music and understands the basics of electronics, recording studios, acoustics and the activities of charlatans? https://theaudiophileman.com/xt25/
__________________
A digital radio is the latest thing, but a vintage wireless is forever.. |
|
5th Apr 2019, 4:33 pm | #617 | |
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Fife, Scotland, UK.
Posts: 22,799
|
Re: Audiophoolery?
Quote:
David
__________________
Can't afford the volcanic island yet, but the plans for my monorail and the goons' uniforms are done |
|
5th Apr 2019, 5:16 pm | #618 | |
Nonode
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Cambridge, Cambs. UK.
Posts: 2,196
|
Re: Audiophoolery?
Quote:
A great illustration of the fact that subjective audiophoolery isn't limited to reproduced sound is the subsequent disaster story of the Philharmonic Hall acoustics. Despite all Beranek's thorough research into the important factors involved, the design turned out to be an acoustic disaster. Wikipedia describes some of the history at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Geffen_Hall . These challenges of 'live' sound in concert hall acoustic design illustrate that there's no real point in worrying about reproduced sound perfection: an orchestra can sound very different in different halls, and in different seats in any one hall. I tend to empathise with those who suggest that a BBC Radio 3 concert broadcast can provide a superior sound experience compared with actually being present in the hall. But then, I note that audiophiles, rather than being interested in apparent reality of reproduction, more often use the artificial creations of rock music as source material. Presumably 'perfect' reproduction then requires multiple speaker colorations similar to those of the original studio monitors. It's rather interesting to read reviews of speakers that claim to achieve new levels of clarity and transparency when in reality their particular colorations are effectively modifying the EQ originally chosen by the producer and engineer in the studio control room. For example, I find myself that some recordings definitely gain 'punchiness' and 'presence' when heard through a horn-loaded speaker. A highly regarded audiophile system isn't necessarily better, just different. Martin
__________________
BVWS Member |
|
5th Apr 2019, 5:40 pm | #619 |
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Fife, Scotland, UK.
Posts: 22,799
|
Re: Audiophoolery?
In the end, it should all be about the pursuit of happiness.
Where it goes wrong is when claims of accuracy come in. I cannot have any objection when anyone says "I prefer this". I get quite obstreperous when people tell me what is right for me. I don't think there is any 'right' in general terms. And when the pseudoscience gets rolled-out in an attempt at justification, I'm rolling on the floor. David
__________________
Can't afford the volcanic island yet, but the plans for my monorail and the goons' uniforms are done |
5th Apr 2019, 6:51 pm | #620 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 3,496
|
Re: Audiophoolery?
I know this will activate some people, but having looked around, I think that some people with unlimited piles of cash are doing this buying quite consciously. They aren't victims...
That's to say, for them, it's just like distinguishing themselves from the masses by buying a Lamborghini Diablo or Pianfarina bodywork. Now we may argue that these cars are subjectively worth spending cash on because they're very fast and beautiful in the eyes of some/ many. And we may argue that it's just silly to buy a cable made of palladium tetra-oxide polyvalent mammoth-breath stardust... It it's the act of buying something/ anything that's expensive, that in its own right gives pleasure, then there's no stopping the super-elites and there kind of shouldn't be! I think this is a victimless pursuit. Some may believe that selling this BS comes from a place of bad intention and should be bolted down and stopped, but I think it's a daring enterprise. I don't particularly admire it, but it's pretty bold. And I'm not saying I spend time wishing that was me, or would actively promote it in any way. Just... I don't think that someone buying a cable for a grand is likely to be financially exploitable or vulnerable. Just sayin'...
__________________
Al |