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Old 4th Apr 2019, 3:50 pm   #601
turretslug
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Default Re: Audiophoolery?

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I must say how buoyed up I am reading your comments: thanks one and all because this sort of drivel starts a domino effect in my poor brain - linking into all the rest of the nonsense that seems to abound these days and before I know it I end up feeling isolated and in despair about the world.

Not this time though

Steve.
Just occasionally, I'll pick up one of the hi-fi comics or find myself wandering onto a hi-fi forum and I think, I'm evidently on the wrong planet and utterly misplacing the purpose of my existence. Then I retreat here, or just talk to some human beings face-to-face, and feel a whole lot better (grounded in more ways than one, perhaps!),

Colin
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Old 4th Apr 2019, 4:01 pm   #602
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I seriously feel that these self styled gurus who design (ha ha), make and sell all this stuff should be brought to account by trading standards in the same way that those who practise fortune telling and so on now have to state that their service is for fun only.
Somehow, I can't see that putting in the advert and packaging of phool cable small print 'For Entertainment purposes only' will make any difference! Because, let's face it, that's what domestic hi fi is about anyway
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Old 4th Apr 2019, 4:02 pm   #603
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Default Re: Audiophoolery?

Cheers Colin
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Old 4th Apr 2019, 4:28 pm   #604
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Speaker cable at $12.000 a metre ! Utter nonsense .

That doesn't sound too bad,


Did you mean $12,000 perhaps? And wouldn't it have to be in meters?
Yes I did shocking spelling .
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Old 4th Apr 2019, 4:35 pm   #605
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Default Re: Audiophoolery?

The law regarding snake oil is different in different countries. In the UK we have the Advertising Standards Authority https://www.asa.org.uk/ who have serious teeth. All it takes is one non-vexatious complainant to trigger a case. As a result of test cases the audio industry in the UK has to be massively careful in what claims they make regarding their products, and what precise wording they use.

In the US, always the territory of snake oilers, the law is very different, and consumer protection tends to caveat emptor rather than a formal regulatory system.

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Old 4th Apr 2019, 5:15 pm   #606
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Default Re: Audiophoolery?

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Originally Posted by stevehertz View Post
I seriously feel that these self styled gurus who design (ha ha), make and sell all this stuff should be brought to account by trading standards in the same way that those who practise fortune telling and so on now have to state that their service is for fun only.
Somehow, I can't see that putting in the advert and packaging of phool cable small print 'For Entertainment purposes only' will make any difference! Because, let's face it, that's what domestic hi fi is about anyway
Well, that's not what I said, and that wouldn't work. I didn't say what should be said, I said (or words to the effect of) it should be against the law to attribute non objectively proven attributes to a hifi/sound system product, the likes of which are commonly used now to describe products that fall into audiophool territory. Subjective words and phrases like sound stage, cable burn in, three dimensional, more air, breath, defined resonance etc etc. I don't want to hang myself on those words, take them as examples of the kind of thing that I mean. Yes I know, there is such a thing as a sound stage but it's not measurable, it's merely an opinion. Other words and phrases are simply ridiculous but have become mainstream in audiophool circles.

That would stop descriptions being unproven and downright misleading. It would also, for better or for worse, maybe take us back to the 70s when specs ruled the roost and descriptions were limited to less 'airy fairy' words and phrases. More about features and overall performance and as I say, no use of snake oil, smoke and mirrors and voodoo phrases that baffle, draw in and ensnare the unwary and unknowledgeable, but worst of all to make money for unscrupulous rip off merchants.
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Old 4th Apr 2019, 6:17 pm   #607
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Default Re: Audiophoolery?

Playing devil's advocate here, precisely the same type of words are used to describe wines and whiskeys.

Why limit non-objectively proven attributes to a hifi product?

"fresh and smooth, yet intense and with dark berry fruit" "edges of violet and an herbaceous freshness" "vibrant red fruits (cherries) and a structure of dense tannins that somehow resist rigidity"

And you are not going to prove those statements, and they could be downright misleading...I might taste those and think they are redolent of a gorilla's armpit.

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Old 4th Apr 2019, 7:08 pm   #608
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I'm with Craig (or, more exactly, with the devil Craig's advocating for) to an extent on this. We are not buying aircraft landing systems or devices for monitoring the medical state of newborns. Of the people who buy hifi those who base their requirements on specs are in a tiny minority. The huge majority buy them for the effect they hope the kit will generate inside their heads, and suggestion plays a large part in that, as with wine and whisky.

Where I draw the line is when sellers do make technical claims about a product which are demonstrably untrue. That should be against the rules and, in fact, in this country it is. The ASA has already passed judgement against miscreants.

I don't think I want to know how Craig can benchmark products against the taste of a gorilla's armpit, by the way .

Cheers,

GJ
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Old 4th Apr 2019, 7:18 pm   #609
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Default Re: Audiophoolery?

Those that peddle to the phools are very careful not to speak of objective, measurable things. That would leave them wide open to action if what they promised was not demonstrably delivered.

Imagine if soundstaging was measurable and the weights and measures people came to call... "You sold Mr Smith four foot eight and a half inches of soundstaging, and it only gives three foot six. We'll start by looking at the calibration certificate of your soundstaging meter... you do have one, don't you? A certificate, that is, and its serial number matches the meter? It hasn't expired, has it?"

Nebulous phraseology is what keep them out of the courthouse.

Just watch some television and see how many advertisements try to sell you a product via an associated lifestyle, and how few make objectively provable promises.

Wouldn't it be fun if a court set a precedent that a nebulous promise on one side of a deal could be met by an equally nebulous offering on the other side. So my ISP promises to provide me with "Up to XX megabits/second" and so I should pay them "Up to YY pounds per month"

Sauce for the goose

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Old 4th Apr 2019, 9:13 pm   #610
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Default Re: Audiophoolery?

Well there actually is a measure of soundstaging relating to concert halls. Suggest a read of Leo Beranek's seminal book "Concert Halls and Opera Houses. Music, Acoustics and Architecture" ISBN 0-387-95524-0

The key factor is the Inter-Aural Cross Correlation Coefficient. There are actually a family of them, defined by equations, and are related to spatial imaging.

Craig

PS Google is your friend http://orbit.dtu.dk/files/55752812/A...tion_final.pdf

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Old 4th Apr 2019, 9:31 pm   #611
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Default Re: Audiophoolery?

And another relating acoustic image width to IACC is here https://iaem.at/ambisonics/symposium...spatcorrsh.pdf
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Old 5th Apr 2019, 9:10 am   #612
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Default Re: Audiophoolery?

OK, perhaps I should have used 'Authority' or 'granularity' as an example. But I don't think the audiophiles mean something as simple as just the perceived width when they say soundstaging. They're after full three-dimensionality. Maybe positioning expressed as error vector magnitude?

What unit would we measure Authority in? Churchills perhaps?
Granularity ought to be in 'Tate & Lyles' of course!

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Old 5th Apr 2019, 10:02 am   #613
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OK - the full list of attributes of 100 great concert halls worldwide is characterised by a list of physical parameters, and other peceptual attributes. From the Beranek book:

Reverberation and fullness of tone
Direct sound, Early sound, Reverberant Sound
Early decay time (EDT)
Speed of successive tones
Definition (or clarity)
Intimacy or presence or Initial-time-delay gap
Liveliness and mid frequencies
Spaciousness
Warmth
Listener envelopment
Strength of sound and loudness
Timbre and tone colour
Acoustical glare
Brilliance
Balance
Blend
Ensemble
Immediacy of response (Attack)
Texture
Echoes
Dynamic range and background noise level
Detriments to tone quality
Uniformity of sound in Audience areas

I think you can find plenty of room in those attributes to fit your Authority and Granularity examples, David

And should you think that Leo Beranek (RIP) was some sort of snake oil merchant, have a look at the guy's CV https://ethw.org/Leo_L._Beranek

Craig
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Old 5th Apr 2019, 1:34 pm   #614
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My cables are so old I think they are "broken in" already. As to beers, they do have different tastes (all lovely) but the evidence is gone, yum yum.
Oh dear, you clearly have not read up on the FAQ's otherwise you would know that your cables require re-cooking for a few days every couple of months otherwise they degrade and you lose your soundstaging.
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Old 5th Apr 2019, 1:46 pm   #615
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Audiophoolery is several steps up from on-line casino's where you get nothing back for your money.
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Old 5th Apr 2019, 4:02 pm   #616
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Audiophoolery is several steps up from on-line casino's where you get nothing back for your money.
Barely. I mean, if you can use basic speaker cables costing a few quid, how is spending thousands going to remotely reimburse you?

On that subject I just googled 'cheap speaker cables' and came up with this (link below). Have you ever read such a load of old codswallop in your life? Here's a snippet: "The cables produce, for the price, an incredible hand clap. You may laugh but the midrange delivery of this sound is indicative of the rest of the sonic performance of this cable. The hand claps here are tonally realistic with a balance between the striking of the hands but also the detail that sounds produces." I must admit, he's a very clever man to be able to listen to a complete system and be able to attribute good hand claps to the speaker cables. Nice one mate.

I wonder if there are any (very expensive) specialist audiophool therapists who can help the sufferer come down from audiophool meltdown and become a stable, rational hifi enthusiast who enjoys listening to music and understands the basics of electronics, recording studios, acoustics and the activities of charlatans?

https://theaudiophileman.com/xt25/
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Old 5th Apr 2019, 4:33 pm   #617
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Default Re: Audiophoolery?

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I wonder if there are any (very expensive) specialist audiophool therapists who can help the sufferer come down from audiophool meltdown and become a stable, rational hifi enthusiast who enjoys listening to music and understands the basics of electronics, recording studios, acoustics and the activities of charlatans?

https://theaudiophileman.com/xt25/
They start at around $25,000 an hour, so maybe the speaker cables are a bargain?

David
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Old 5th Apr 2019, 5:16 pm   #618
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Default Re: Audiophoolery?

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Well there actually is a measure of soundstaging relating to concert halls. Suggest a read of Leo Beranek's seminal book "Concert Halls and Opera Houses. Music, Acoustics and Architecture" ISBN 0-387-95524-0

The key factor is the Inter-Aural Cross Correlation Coefficient. There are actually a family of them, defined by equations, and are related to spatial imaging.

Craig

PS Google is your friend http://orbit.dtu.dk/files/55752812/A...tion_final.pdf
Beranek's 'Music Acoustics and Architecture' is a fascinating read. Bolt Beranek & Newman were appointed back in the late 1950s as acoustic consultants on the then planned New York Philharmonic Hall (today called David Geffen Hall) opened in 1962. I marvel at the fact that this contract appeared to sponsor a world tour for Leo Beranek and his wife to make subjective assessments of the world's concert halls, all faithfully recorded in the book.

A great illustration of the fact that subjective audiophoolery isn't limited to reproduced sound is the subsequent disaster story of the Philharmonic Hall acoustics. Despite all Beranek's thorough research into the important factors involved, the design turned out to be an acoustic disaster. Wikipedia describes some of the history at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Geffen_Hall .

These challenges of 'live' sound in concert hall acoustic design illustrate that there's no real point in worrying about reproduced sound perfection: an orchestra can sound very different in different halls, and in different seats in any one hall. I tend to empathise with those who suggest that a BBC Radio 3 concert broadcast can provide a superior sound experience compared with actually being present in the hall.

But then, I note that audiophiles, rather than being interested in apparent reality of reproduction, more often use the artificial creations of rock music as source material. Presumably 'perfect' reproduction then requires multiple speaker colorations similar to those of the original studio monitors. It's rather interesting to read reviews of speakers that claim to achieve new levels of clarity and transparency when in reality their particular colorations are effectively modifying the EQ originally chosen by the producer and engineer in the studio control room. For example, I find myself that some recordings definitely gain 'punchiness' and 'presence' when heard through a horn-loaded speaker.

A highly regarded audiophile system isn't necessarily better, just different.

Martin
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Old 5th Apr 2019, 5:40 pm   #619
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In the end, it should all be about the pursuit of happiness.

Where it goes wrong is when claims of accuracy come in. I cannot have any objection when anyone says "I prefer this". I get quite obstreperous when people tell me what is right for me. I don't think there is any 'right' in general terms. And when the pseudoscience gets rolled-out in an attempt at justification, I'm rolling on the floor.

David
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Old 5th Apr 2019, 6:51 pm   #620
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I know this will activate some people, but having looked around, I think that some people with unlimited piles of cash are doing this buying quite consciously. They aren't victims...

That's to say, for them, it's just like distinguishing themselves from the masses by buying a Lamborghini Diablo or Pianfarina bodywork. Now we may argue that these cars are subjectively worth spending cash on because they're very fast and beautiful in the eyes of some/ many.

And we may argue that it's just silly to buy a cable made of palladium tetra-oxide polyvalent mammoth-breath stardust...

It it's the act of buying something/ anything that's expensive, that in its own right gives pleasure, then there's no stopping the super-elites and there kind of shouldn't be! I think this is a victimless pursuit.

Some may believe that selling this BS comes from a place of bad intention and should be bolted down and stopped, but I think it's a daring enterprise. I don't particularly admire it, but it's pretty bold. And I'm not saying I spend time wishing that was me, or would actively promote it in any way.

Just... I don't think that someone buying a cable for a grand is likely to be financially exploitable or vulnerable. Just sayin'...
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