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Old 25th Oct 2016, 1:33 pm   #1
Larry4911
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Default Impression in brass worn, how to reveal?

Hi all, I could use a bit of help from you guys.

I am trying to determine the maker of a vintage saxophone, yes I know this is an electronics forum, and indeed I have been a member here for many years and know you guys to be very knowledgeable and helpful. I'm sure that someone on here will know how to reveal the polished out impresssions more so than anyone on musical instrument forums as I've tried all I'm registered on and 'I can't get no satisfaction!' Do you see what I did there? Anyway, I've been on and off this forum for many years and thought of you clever lot.

So, the problem is, the imprint on the brass is only just visible in miniscule parts, not enough to make out the makers name. Over the past 100yrs or so, someone has polished it all away. I've tried photo manipulation with all sorts of lighting types and positions but cannot get enough information for an ID.

I know there is an acid etching way to do it but have been unable to find anyone with knowledge on exactly how to do it.

Thanks

Larry
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Old 25th Oct 2016, 3:39 pm   #2
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Default Re: Impression in brass worn, how to reveal?

Hi Larry,

I don't know how to do what you are specifically asking but I have a suggestion that you may not have tried.

Research possible period musical instrument makers and their logos building up a list. Then compare your list with what's left of the markings on the instrument. You may be lucky and find only one logo that fits the word shape on the instrument.

Its called thinking outside the music box.
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Old 25th Oct 2016, 4:24 pm   #3
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Default Re: Impression in brass worn, how to reveal?

This might sound a bit daft, and you may have already tried, but how about (appropriately enough) brass rubbing, wax crayon and greaseproof paper?
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Old 25th Oct 2016, 4:31 pm   #4
Larry4911
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Default Re: Impression in brass worn, how to reveal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ukcol View Post
I don't know how to do what you are specifically asking but I have a suggestion that you may not have tried.
Tried and failed. There are very few examples of the period, imaged online and with the necessary details. Most people are more concerned with the actions and playing them than photographing the makers marks.

A catalogue of instrument makers marks would however be a great idea though.

I have tried asking some very experienced vintage sax restorers and collectors but nobody has a clue.

I really need to make the marks clear enough to photograph for a proper ID.

Thanks

Larry
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Old 25th Oct 2016, 4:51 pm   #5
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Default Re: Impression in brass worn, how to reveal?

If it was impressed then there may be some imprint on the back of the material.
Have you tried just breathing on it? That's a way of getting info from valves that have the printing mostly rubbed off.
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Old 25th Oct 2016, 4:59 pm   #6
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Default Re: Impression in brass worn, how to reveal?

You need to be able to see the distortion in the crystal structure of the metal as a result of the mark in the (now removed) layers above. Magnetic methods are often used on ferrous metals but are no use here.

A quick hunt online has found two promising looking pages:

June 1936 popular science page 111:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...rkings&f=false
Discusses revealing tool marks in the die used to strike a coin by etching and then casting a soft material onto the surface.

This page covers forensic etching of brass:
http://www.santoshraut.com/forensic/toolmark.htm

I have a contact who has studied forensic science, I'll ask her if she knows anything about it.
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Old 25th Oct 2016, 5:14 pm   #7
Larry4911
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Default Re: Impression in brass worn, how to reveal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by martiR2R View Post
This might sound a bit daft, and you may have already tried, but how about (appropriately enough) brass rubbing, wax crayon and greaseproof paper?
I've tried with all sorts of paper from very thin craft paper to copier paper and pencils to pastels. I guess because what is left is so very shallow and because it is on a compound curved surface, anything thicker than craft paper would not register the tiny differences in the surface. Even so, not enough information, I got more information certainly, but not sadly enough. At the very least I now know there is an 'S' in it somewhere.

Thanks

Larry
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Old 25th Oct 2016, 5:22 pm   #8
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Default Re: Impression in brass worn, how to reveal?

Is it at the large end, if so can a boroscope view the inside to check the rear of the stamping for clues?
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Old 25th Oct 2016, 5:41 pm   #9
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Default Re: Impression in brass worn, how to reveal?

As well as just the right etchant, I suspect it could be necessary to use a good metallurgical microscope with all the trimmings (and an operator who knows how to use it) to get to an image where you could get a photograph. Easier on a coin than a saxaphone.

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Old 25th Oct 2016, 6:07 pm   #10
Larry4911
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Default Re: Impression in brass worn, how to reveal?

It is on the right side of the bell ( from the players perspective) because the left side has a tone hole in it.

There are no indications of any reverse indents on the inside of the bell. Probably because 1) it was originally a very light impression and 2) they didn't have hard rubber on the inside when impressing the stamps, in those days they used metal. Unlike today, it would be very evident on the inside.

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Old 25th Oct 2016, 7:10 pm   #11
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Smile Re: Impression in brass worn, how to reveal?

Good evening,
I have a saxophone as well (though that bad I would not dare to play it within a 20 mile radius of any other person !!) Sounds rather obvious to sound silly but is there any clues to the manufacturer by the mechanisms to open and close the holes, shapes of the keys, overall dimensions, any fancy brackets/fastners ECT.

Christopher Capener
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Old 26th Oct 2016, 6:22 am   #12
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Default Re: Impression in brass worn, how to reveal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry4911 View Post
There are no indications of any reverse indents on the inside of the bell. Probably because 1) it was originally a very light impression and 2) they didn't have hard rubber on the inside when impressing the stamps, in those days they used metal. Unlike today, it would be very evident on the inside.
You won't see any 'reverse impression' on the inside, and you are unlikely to reveal any metallurgical evidence because the makers mark is engraved by hand on early saxes using a very light touch. No 'impression' at all!

I've been restoring wind musical instruments for over 40 years. Send me a PM and I'll see if I can help.
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Old 26th Oct 2016, 9:38 am   #13
Larry4911
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Default Re: Impression in brass worn, how to reveal?

Christopher, I've been conversing and sharing photos with a very knowledgeable wind instrument technician and historian about it. Sadly, his English is worse than my French and many 'lost in translation' problems occurred and hilarity caused. I was able, with his help, to find a date range of 1879-1900, due to key mechanism developments etc. However, no maker was obvious.

As it is a C tenor or C Melody if you prefer, with 2 octave keys instead of the links and single key of modern saxes, not a great deal of research has been done compared to Bb and Eb saxes. Many modern players would scrap it or hang it on the wall and not bother with it and sadly that is what I think most of these have been relegated to. So, finding another of this maker, let alone one which the owner is pleased enough with to bother photographing and posting online, in anything like this condition would be incredibly difficult to say the least.

Thanks

Larry
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Old 1st Nov 2016, 5:34 pm   #14
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Default Re: Impression in brass worn, how to reveal?

Polarised light any use?
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Old 2nd Nov 2016, 11:41 am   #15
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Default Re: Impression in brass worn, how to reveal?

Hi Larry, it would be nice to see some photos of your Saxophone.

Thanks - Mike
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Old 3rd Nov 2016, 6:23 pm   #16
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Default Re: Impression in brass worn, how to reveal?

I had the painted face of our vintage clock restored - much of the original face was simply not visible. The restorer did a wonderful job of retrieving what couldn't be seen with the naked eye. I asked him about it and he said he simply illuminated the surface of the clock with a uv torch and it could reveal to the eye what could not be seen under daylight. So, worth a try with one of those uv torches? One of those Jobbies you can get to reveal 'hidden' postcodes that some householders put on the back of valuable items such as TV sets etc in the event that they may be stolen? Just a thought.
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Old 3rd Nov 2016, 7:07 pm   #17
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Default Re: Impression in brass worn, how to reveal?

Has anyone tried UV on valves where the markings have been rubbed off?
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Old 3rd Nov 2016, 7:55 pm   #18
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Default Re: Impression in brass worn, how to reveal?

Yes, I've tried it but never had any success. My experience is this respect is that once it's gone, it's gone

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