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Old 18th Apr 2020, 10:20 am   #1
Telephone Guy
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Default Ringing another phone within the house

Hello all.


I suspect I probably ( more or less ) know the answer to this question, but ...


On an ordinary UK house phone system ( using, as a matter of interest, all pre-1980 746-shape phones, but the push-button variety ... 782's ...? ), nothing fancy, just four phones each plugged into a wall socket, my question is, is it possible to call one phone in the house from another?

I should probably explain that a bit more clearly. I'm 99.9% certain you can't actually ring one phone from another without some sort of reasonably significant modification, and that's certainly not the extent I'm looking to go to. The thing is, if the two of us who live here happen to be in rooms at the opposite end of the house, shouting to each other can be a bit unproductive ...! I seem to recall that there's a number you can dial to make your house phone ring back ( albeit all of them at once, but that's not a problem ); but I also seem to remember that when it rings back, there's either a tone or a recording or both, so you wouldn't be able to talk over it to another person.

Any thoughts or offerings ...?
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Old 18th Apr 2020, 10:33 am   #2
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Default Re: Ringing another phone within the house

Hello TG,

I think what you need is something called a PBX, which goes between your incoming line and all the phones in the house. Broadly, that enables you to call any other phone in the house using its 'internal' number but you can still dial to the outside world, typically by dialling '9' first for an outside line then dialling the required number.

By far the simplest / cheapest solution would be to replace or augment your existing phones with a modern DECT phone set of two or more cordless phones, the reason being that most such sets have an 'intercom' mode where any one of the phones can call any of the other phones. In this case the connection between phones is made wirelessly via the base unit, so the problem of two phones trying to use the same line is completely bypassed.

If you do decide to go that route, google the model or download the instruction manual to make sure the model you are considering does have that feature.
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Old 18th Apr 2020, 10:42 am   #3
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Default Re: Ringing another phone within the house

Going by your forum name I am guessing you want to use your vintage phones.

There was a design in Wireless world maybe 25 years or so ago for a home PABX whilst looking for it I found this.

http://www.aholme.co.uk/Exchange/Design.htm

How handy are you with a soldering iron!

Cheers

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Old 18th Apr 2020, 11:52 am   #4
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Default Re: Ringing another phone within the house

Something of the like of the arrangement on a P 105/107 internal would work ,I suspect . 700 series had a space for a button and microswitch on top of the phone. 200/300 before my time. Would need a few spare pairs in the connecting wiring. Or go the whole hog and fit a 105/105 internal.
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Old 18th Apr 2020, 12:11 pm   #5
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Default Re: Ringing another phone within the house

Quote:
Originally Posted by Telephone Guy View Post
I seem to recall that there's a number you can dial to make your house phone ring back ( albeit all of them at once, but that's not a problem ); but I also seem to remember that when it rings back, there's either a tone or a recording or both, so you wouldn't be able to talk over it to another person.
If your telephone contract is with BT and you 'phone 17070, you will receive a recorded message confirming your telephone number and giving you a list of testing options including "1 for ringback test". Once you select this and "clear down" (i.e. replace the handset) you will receive a callback with a further recorded message saying "Ringback test completed. Goodbye." It then clears down.

Once you have both been alerted by this ringback and the call has cleared down (which is followed by a short burst of NU tone), you should be able to stay on the 'phones and communicate with one another.

Another alternative that occurs to me, though not applicable if you're using DTMF models 782, is that if you had loop disconnect (pulse) telephones each with its own ringing capacitor, you could utilise the bell tinkle that would result from dialling say a "0", and then waiting for the party on the other extension to pick up.

One final (low-tech) alternative is to pick up the 'phone and yell loudly "pick up the phone!".

As Sirius says though, the best way is to acquire a small Private Branch Exchange (PBX) and rewire your extensions so that each is a separate extension of the PBX.
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Old 18th Apr 2020, 1:02 pm   #6
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Default Re: Ringing another phone within the house

Firstly, thanks to everyone for their responses.

As CobaltBlue has observed, we do very much want to keep the existing 'vintage' phones ( are they classified as vintage nowadays ...?! ). Neither of us can abide by the more modern types, and as for cordless phones, whilst I don't question the technological advances, I've never been able to get used to the idea of speaking into to something that's somewhere between a TV remote and a Mars Bar ( don't even get me started on mobile phones ... ).

The problem with the PBX idea ( apart from getting one ) would be precisely the need to connect it inbetween the outside line and all the phones in the house; without running untold amounts of new wiring or stripping the existing wiring out of the walls and loft, practically speaking, that would be impossible.

The 'Wireless World' solution is elegant enough but way too complicated. If I had the time and wherewithal, I'd be capable of doing it in the technical sense ( might need translations for some of the components whose iconography I don't remember now ); I've wielded a soldering iron many times, including building a small synthesiser when I was at school ( back when synthesisers mostly looked like telephone switchboards ), but not for many many years now.

I don't fully understand Oldcodger's reference, but I suspect once again that it wouldn't be anywhere near as simple as the installation of a button or microswitch on top of the phone ( even if I could come by four of them ). The P105 / 107 and 105 / 105 references don't mean anything to me, I'm afraid.

With absolutely no disrespect to any of the other contributors, all of whose input I appreciate, I suspect Dave Moll is probably working on the right lines ( no pun intended ). I believe this may have been the number I was thinking of ( did this use to be 174 or 175, or am I thinking of something else? ). However, the initial recording says something like 'no CLI ( 'calling line identification' ...?... I'm guessing ) has been identified', and moves on to options 2 and 3. Again, I'm guessing that this is because our number is 'blanket witheld', to save us dialling 141 before every call, but I'd assumed that the 17070 service would automatically defeat that in the same way as when you phone a 100 or 999 operator. I feel like there must be an easy way around this, but I don't know what it is.

In fact, none of the phones are pulse-diallers, but it occurs to me that even if they were, that would achieve the result of alerting the other person to pick up the phone, but am I not right in saying that if the exchange equipment does not detect any further digits being dialled, it would then automatically go to NU anyway?

Ironically ( whether tongue-in-cheek or not, I'm not quite sure ...! ), the 'yelling 'pick up the phone'' idea would work, were it not for the fact that if we both did nothing other than pick up the respective phones, we'd both hear the dialling tone followed ( presumably ) by the NU tone? - Or again, even using a DTMF phone, if one of us simply dialled a zero, say, to defeat the dial tone, it would surely still go NU quite soon afterward?

If there was a way to pick up the phone and just make the line go quiet and stay quiet, to be honest, that would more or less solve the problem!!
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Old 18th Apr 2020, 1:23 pm   #7
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Default Re: Ringing another phone within the house

If 17070 says "There was no CLI detected", it means you have chosen to permanently withhold your number. You might have thought that a network service such as 17070 would see your CLI regardless but that is not the case.

Try 147017070 and it will work.
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Old 18th Apr 2020, 2:49 pm   #8
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Default Re: Ringing another phone within the house

RE #5- 17070 /1 works on plusnet as well, but from my days self employed on systems I found that some BT/OR managers( we older engineers always called this lot "Assistant engineers" )don't like this getting out
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Old 18th Apr 2020, 4:43 pm   #9
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Default Re: Ringing another phone within the house

Quote:
Originally Posted by Telephone Guy View Post
In fact, none of the phones are pulse-diallers, but it occurs to me that even if they were, that would achieve the result of alerting the other person to pick up the phone, but am I not right in saying that if the exchange equipment does not detect any further digits being dialled, it would then automatically go to NU anyway?
I tried the dial "0" and wait, with the result that I got about 25 seconds of silence before receiving the message "the number you have dialled has not been recognised".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Telephone Guy View Post
Ironically ( whether tongue-in-cheek or not, I'm not quite sure ...! ), the 'yelling 'pick up the phone'' idea would work, were it not for the fact that if we both did nothing other than pick up the respective phones, we'd both hear the dialling tone followed ( presumably ) by the NU tone? - Or again, even using a DTMF phone, if one of us simply dialled a zero, say, to defeat the dial tone, it would surely still go NU quite soon afterward?

If there was a way to pick up the phone and just make the line go quiet and stay quiet, to be honest, that would more or less solve the problem!!
This is where option "2" (quiet line) from the 17070 comes in useful. I don't know whether there's a limit to how long it will remain connected, but should give plenty of time for a reasonable conversation, albeit interrupted every 20 seconds or so by a voice saying "quiet line test". An no, this was intended as a serious suggestion.
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Old 18th Apr 2020, 4:45 pm   #10
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Default Re: Ringing another phone within the house

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I found that some BT/OR managers( we older engineers always called this lot "Assistant engineers" )don't like this getting out
Yes, I do appreciate that the 17070 facility is not intended as a service for hoi polloi.
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Old 18th Apr 2020, 6:00 pm   #11
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Default Re: Ringing another phone within the house

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RE #5- 17070 /1 works on plusnet as well,
If you have a provider that does not accept 17070 you can use the geographic alternative 020 8759 9036 (chargeable call).

I just tried it on my Asteisk box using discountvoip which, of necessity uses spoofed CLI.

I tried several that are verified with discountvoip

Any geographic number is successfully read back, as are 03 numbers. Mobile numbers are ignored.
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Old 18th Apr 2020, 7:00 pm   #12
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Default Re: Ringing another phone within the house

Not easily, but there is a dodge.

Assuming you have 4-wires between phones, and you only need 3 (BT socket pins 2 3 and 5)

Put a press button between A wire and the spare wire at each socket. Put a DC buzzer/bell between the other side of the press button and the B wire at each socket.

Known as GPO Plan 1
Diagram N4501
http://www.samhallas.co.uk/repositor...file=N4501.pdf

Bell/buzzer should be rated for 50v if you use it on-hook or about 12v if you use it off-hook.

Go off-hook, press button to sound buzzer, dial 1 to break dial tone and get silence (for a short while, until the exchange demands another digit... ), talk to other person when they pick up another extension.
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Old 19th Apr 2020, 12:50 pm   #13
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Default Re: Ringing another phone within the house

OF- re #4 . some minds think alike is the phrase
Most modern installs these days would use 6wire internal.
@Dave Moll-- meant as an observation .I always found it was the ones promoted ahead of their abilities that didn't see the sense of us private blokes using BT facilities.

Last edited by Oldcodger; 19th Apr 2020 at 12:59 pm.
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Old 19th Apr 2020, 2:48 pm   #14
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Default Re: Ringing another phone within the house

There was another way to make all the phones in your house ring.

Many phones had a timed-break recall button, usually marked R. While in a call, pressing this button gave you a dialtone. The idea was that you could make another call to someone else (to ask them a question, for example, or to use 3-way calling if you subscribe to it) then return to the first caller by pressing R again. While you were making a second call, the first caller hears a message saying their call is on hold.

But you didn't have to make a second call. If you pressed R during a call, received the dialtone then hung up, the exchange rings your phone back. All the phones in your house will ring at the same time. When any one of them is answered, the exchange reconnects you to the original call.

This trick makes all your phones ring. It can't make an individual phone ring in your house. For that, you'd ideally need a PBX, which is the best solution.

Your vintage phones probably don't have a timed-break recall button, but all it does is disconnect the line for a fraction of a second. With practice, you can perform a timed break recall by tapping the hookswitch once rapidly. On some phones, the R button is set to earth recall instead of timed-break; change the setting if possible.
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Old 19th Apr 2020, 5:02 pm   #15
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Default Re: Ringing another phone within the house

On a 782 (other than the 782RR variant), which I understand is what the OP has, any recall button would have been physically wired for earth recall. If suitably rewired, it could be made to disconnect the loop while pressed, but this would merely be a duplication of what can be achieved with the hookswitch. I should say that I've never actually met a 782RR nor the TBR unit that would have been used.
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Old 19th Apr 2020, 6:16 pm   #16
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Default Re: Ringing another phone within the house

hamid 1's suggestion seems the most elegant and simple. If the 'wrong' end of the house answers the call, the other end will know if the phone rings again within half a minute or so.
The duration of the timed break is not critical, and will soon be mastered with very little practice.
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Old 19th Apr 2020, 9:34 pm   #17
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Default Re: Ringing another phone within the house

I remember from the 80'ies that we could get a little box with a button and some elctronics, it was just plugged in together with 2 phone, and you could send a beep (not heard on the line) to the opposite box.

Do not remember make or model.

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Old 21st Apr 2020, 6:04 pm   #18
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Default Re: Ringing another phone within the house

Good afternoon, all.

Firstly, thanks to everyone for their valuable contributions. I'm not sure which of these is going to be the solution, but with a bit of experimentation I'm sure we'll find the best option in there somewhere. Having read all the posts and considered the original one a bit more carefully, I think with hindsight that the problem wasn't quite what I'd perceived it to be. As has been explored at length in the various answers in this thread, ringing another phone in the house ( or at least, alerting the one other person in the house to pick up a phone ) isn't as big a problem as I'd imagined. The real problem, it turns out, is in how to dial a number ( or do anything else, but since our phones only have the standard 782 keypad, I'd guess it would have to involve dialling a number ...! ) that results in a line that stays completely silent indefinitely. The best alternative so far would seem to be the quiet line test, although even that is punctuated by the words 'quiet line test' every 20 seconds or so ... if anyone can improve on that, I'll be delighted to hear from them!


In light of the fact that I ( albeit inadvertently ) posted what turned out to be the wrong question - or at least the less important one - in the first place, I've started another thread asking about the silent line issue ... I hope that's the right thing to do, although I'm sure it will be more or less all the same people reading it anyway!

Thank you all again for your help.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 7:03 pm   #19
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Default Re: Ringing another phone within the house

Returning to the initial rejection of installing a PABX. Before totally dismissing this on the basis of the rewiring involved, would it be possible to confirm how the current extensions are wired? If each is daisy-chained to the next, then a considerable amount of rewiring would be involved. If, however, each extension is wired direct from the master socket, the insertion of a PABX would be fairly straightforward by disconnecting each of these from the master socket (and probably replacing each extension's faceplate with a master to cope with two-wire connections from the PABX) then connecting each of these to extensions of the PABX, including providing such an extension for any 'phone (though NOT the ADSL connection if there is one) previously connected to the master. The master socket would then feed just the PABX and any ADSL connection.

Whether this would make installation of a PABX worth considering, only you can judge.

As I say, if each extension is daisy-chained from the previous one (i.e. only one set of wires leading off from the master), then this is a non-starter without creating new cable runs.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 7:25 pm   #20
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Default Re: Ringing another phone within the house

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As I say, if each extension is daisy-chained from the previous one (i.e. only one set of wires leading off from the master), then this is a non-starter without creating new cable runs.
Not necessarily.

If it's two-pair wiring, one pair can be used for extension A and the other pair can be used for extension B.

Each extension line can have multiple phones in parallel, subject to not exceeding the REN capability of the PABX.

You would need twice the number of phones though, as you really need both A and B phones at each location - or at least close enough there is overlap.

Go off-hook on any phone A, dial B's number, and the other person can pick up any phone B to answer.

It may be possible to get away with not having double the phones, if the extensions can be arranged in a mutually-exclusive pattern, eg 4 extensions A in the East Wing and 4 extensions B in the West Wing - it will be possible to phone from East Wing to West Wing, but not between two rooms in the same wing.

Another possibility is to use two-line sockets at each location, and plug one phone into the A line to make the call, all the other phones being left plugged into the B line to answer the call. This does rely on memory to re-plug the calling phone back into B when finished, so that it can receive an incoming call.

A final option, not using the existing telephones, is multiple field telephones across a spare pair.
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