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Old 21st Aug 2021, 10:48 pm   #41
Timbucus
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Default Re: Karen's PICL - PCB available

Wow you are really digging into this - fascinating.
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Old 21st Aug 2021, 10:51 pm   #42
Mark1960
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Default Re: Karen's PICL - PCB available

I’d like an 8060 based NIBL with page 2 support, any chance you would include an 8154?

I’ve used a 74act163 as address latch and was thinking the RCO output might be used as a page decode for IO at Fxxx, but maybe for a NIBL machine a 74x169 could use the RCO in count down mode to enable the 4k rom for NIBL, and disable ram if it has a second Chip select.
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Old 2nd Sep 2021, 6:02 pm   #43
Phil__G
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Default Re: Karen's PICL - PCB available

Some progress - I have Karen's PAGE2.SYS running on the PICL.

Obviously some commands such as SAV & LOD (save/load to cassette) PRN (print) etc wont work as the hardware isnt there, but the commands DIR, DMP, CHM, ASM, NIB etc all seem to work perfectly

I loaded PAGE2 into the NVRAM using the TL866 programmer, remembering that page 2 is at nvram address zero, ie page 1 & 2 are reversed, and on power-on as expected NIBL does its ROM test and so corrupts (decrements) the first line length byte, this is expected and is easily fixed with 3 direct commands:

@2002=0
@2003=1
@2004=18 <--- this is the line-length byte that NIBL decrements

...after which the direct commands 'PAGE=2' and 'RUN' will start up the PAGE2 system.

The ROM-test corruption happens every power-up if PAGE2 is ram or nvram, so the @ commands will need repeating after a power-up or hard reset, this is unfortunate but thats just how NIBL works. I've not managed to make PAGE2 read-only yet, thats ongoing... but one day I will add a 'warm start' facility to NIBL, like Microsoft basic has, and also change the way it tests page2 for rom.

Cheers
Phil
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Last edited by Phil__G; 2nd Sep 2021 at 6:31 pm.
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Old 3rd Sep 2021, 7:06 pm   #44
Phil__G
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Default Re: Karen's PICL - PCB available

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil__G
...this is expected and is easily fixed with 3 direct commands:

@2002=0
@2003=1
@2004=18 <--- this is the line-length byte that NIBL decrements

...after which the direct commands 'PAGE=2' and 'RUN' will start up the PAGE2 system.
Sorry, I missed the # there, should read: ('#' depicts hex)

"...and is easily fixed with 3 direct commands:

@#2002=0
@#2003=1
@#2004=18 <--- this is the line-length byte that NIBL decrements

...after which the direct commands 'PAGE=2' and 'RUN' will start up the PAGE2 system"
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Old 3rd Sep 2021, 9:39 pm   #45
Timbucus
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Default Re: Karen's PICL - PCB available

This is excellent progress - I am so glad to see PAGE 2 getting some attention - I must get around to it as a project.
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Old 5th Sep 2021, 4:27 pm   #46
Phil__G
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Default Re: Karen's PICL - PCB available

It does work Tim but a serious PAGE2.SYS machine really needs more memory.
As long as you stick to commands other than ASM its fine, but PAGE2.SYS uses the whole of page 2, and the ASM function uses page 1 for a symbol table, leaving nowhere for ASM source or NIBL programs
The PICL isnt easily expanded as the port pins that would be A13 onwards (to take it above 8kb) are already used for /CE, /RD & /WR.

However, I've developed a soft spot for Karens two-chip marvel so I might have a crack at a PICL-specific machine-code monitor. The inbuilt assembler for example is very clever but personally I wouldnt use it, any development would be done externally on a PC cross-assembler like SBASM. For a PICL-resident monitor I'm thinking something smaller, more like Kitbug. One k should be enough for quite a capable monitor, and located right at the top of NV memory (say at #2C00) it would leave 3k free in page 2 and 4k in page1 - very little impact for the gain. Maybe even code it into the PIC, copied into RAM on start-up. Available any time by typing LINK(#2C00). You'd have to be careful with the length of page2 programs as NIBL has no concept of 'reserved memory' but 7k goes a long way. Does that sound like a plan?

Last edited by Phil__G; 5th Sep 2021 at 4:43 pm.
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Old 9th Sep 2021, 11:03 am   #47
Phil__G
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Default Re: Karen's PICL - PCB available

For anyone who is still following this , I've converted Karens PAGE2.SYS source from AS to SBASM, it assembles cleanly and the binary compares perfectly with Karens original PAGE2 eprom-dump kindly supplied by Tim. I've left the cryptic AS directives in but commented them out.
One thing to be aware of - be sure you have the latest crscmp.py cross-file, the version included in the current download package on San's website isnt up-to-date.

The SB version of the PAGE2.SYS source, and San's updated CRSCMP.PY files are on http://philg.uk on the PICL page.
The cross-file goes in the sbapack folder in place of the obsolete file.
Cheers
Phil

Last edited by Phil__G; 9th Sep 2021 at 11:08 am.
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Old 9th Sep 2021, 11:45 am   #48
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Default Re: Karen's PICL - PCB available

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil__G View Post
One thing to be aware of - be sure you have the latest crscmp.py cross-file, the version included in the current download package on San's website isnt up-to-date.
If you want you can also follow the link to Sams Github page and download the zip of the latest version that includes this file. Usual disclaimers about in-dev software etc etc but its all working for me,
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Old 9th Sep 2021, 12:19 pm   #49
SiriusHardware
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Default Re: Karen's PICL - PCB available

Thanks for the info about the update to the CRSCMP.py 'cross' file, I would have assumed that the version currently on San's site was the most up to date. What issues does it fix, any idea?
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Old 9th Sep 2021, 12:35 pm   #50
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Default Re: Karen's PICL - PCB available

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusHardware View Post
Thanks for the info about the update to the CRSCMP.py 'cross' file, I would have assumed that the version currently on San's site was the most up to date. What issues does it fix, any idea?
Relative address calculations that wrap round the current 256 byte page mostly I think.
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Old 9th Sep 2021, 1:06 pm   #51
Phil__G
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Default Re: Karen's PICL - PCB available

Thats right, for example scios in the the MK14 has code from 0000 that references storage & variables below 0xFFFF by relative addressing, the original cross thought that 0xFFFF was an offset of ~64k above the code so flagged an offset error. It wasnt aware that wrap-around means these variables are actually only a short hop away in the backwards direction
I'm not sure why San hasnt updated his website, seems odd, yet he's happy to send anyone the update if they email him.
The update seems solid, I've used it on scios, nibl, page2 and a few small projects - though I have to constantly refer to the SBASM manual
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Old 9th Sep 2021, 1:32 pm   #52
Slothie
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Default Re: Karen's PICL - PCB available

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil__G View Post
I'm not sure why San hasnt updated his website, seems odd, yet he's happy to send anyone the update if they email him.
The update seems solid, I've used it on scios, nibl, page2 and a few small projects - though I have to constantly refer to the SBASM manual
Perhaps he has a few changes waiting to be ready and doesn't like releasing new versions too often. Changes to one CR file only affects a few people, releasing the whole program with lots of untested changes might affect a lot of people and cause a support problem for him.

Interesting you say you've got it working on SCIOS, I had problems with assembling that with SBASM that the new CR didn't seem to fix (although to be fair I didn't do more than just try assembling it). Maybe I need to look to see if my "conversion" of the source needs another look at. Maybe the problem is with my source not the assembler!
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Old 9th Sep 2021, 1:56 pm   #53
SiriusHardware
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Default Re: Karen's PICL - PCB available

Maybe San is just using we current SBASM3 / SC/MP cross users as unofficial beta testers? I found a few minor problems in the Z80 cross in the beta version of SBASM3 which I notified San about, and which he subsequently fixed.

If Slothie still can't assemble SCIOS then maybe it is the way he has 'converted' the source or maybe there is still an issue there to be found. It will be awfully handy for San if we find it before he includes it in the official release.
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Old 9th Sep 2021, 2:01 pm   #54
Phil__G
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Default Re: Karen's PICL - PCB available

Heres Chris's SB-ified Scios source Ian:

Code:
Assembling....

Pass one
Loaded scmp overlay version 3.02.00

Pass two
0000-                  1        ;
0000-                  2        ; Mk14 Firmware Version 1 (SCMPKB)
0000-                  3        ;
0000-                  4        ; Formatted for the SB-Assembler (https://www.sbprojects.net/sbasm/)
0000-                  5        ;
0000-                  6        ; Chris Oddy Dec 2020
0000-                  7        ;
0000-                  8                        .CR             scmp
Source file: scios.asm

*** Warning: Instruction starts at page boundary
     89                 NOP

*** Warning: Offset is -128, E register conflict
    171                 JZ              GOOUT           ; error if not TERM

0 Errors found during assembly.
2 Warnings found during assembly.

D:\scmp_asm>
Both warnings are ok, one is the inoperative NOP and the other is a genuine 0x80 offset. The binary it produces is perfect!

Forgot to mention Kitbug, that assembles too after SB-ifying. When I get the PICL monitor sorted out I'll post it.
What I'm aiming for is a self-contained machine-code monitor and NIBL on Karens two-chip platform, without the weight of the full PAGE2 system and so leaving more free memory. I think it would make an ideal intro to the SC/MP.
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Last edited by Phil__G; 9th Sep 2021 at 2:28 pm.
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Old 9th Sep 2021, 2:34 pm   #55
Slothie
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Default Re: Karen's PICL - PCB available

Ah, I was trying to assemble SCIOS v2, from a source I converted from a TASM source I found on Paul Robson's now dissapeared website. Like I say, perhaps I need to work on my conversion more.
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Old 9th Sep 2021, 2:46 pm   #56
Phil__G
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Default Re: Karen's PICL - PCB available

Chris has already done V2 in SBASM Ian, here, just above "Tape Interface" about 2/3 the way down the page
http://theoddys.com/acorn/Acorn%20Sy...MK14/mk14.html

Re the loss of Paul Robsons site, we really could do with a bullet-proof repository for all this precious info, some has already been lost forever (like the Elektor resident SC/MP disassembler)

Last edited by Phil__G; 9th Sep 2021 at 2:54 pm.
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Old 9th Sep 2021, 3:03 pm   #57
SiriusHardware
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Default Re: Karen's PICL - PCB available

How long have I been away? When did this happen?

Might it be possible to find an archived version of the site, on waybackmachine or something similar?
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Old 9th Sep 2021, 3:15 pm   #58
Slothie
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Default Re: Karen's PICL - PCB available

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil__G View Post
Chris has already done V2 in SBASM Ian, here, just above "Tape Interface" about 2/3 the way down the page
http://theoddys.com/acorn/Acorn%20Sy...MK14/mk14.html

Re the loss of Paul Robsons site, we really could do with a bullet-proof repository for all this precious info, some has already been lost forever (like the Elektor resident SC/MP disassembler)
Hmm I never spotted that before. His version assembles properly, mine doesn't. The difference appears to be that he has converted his offsets from P3 to negative decimal numbers where I left them as Hex offsets, and presumably SBASM wasn't sign extending in the correct way! Oh well, I'm glad it works at least and generates the right code.
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Old 9th Sep 2021, 3:30 pm   #59
Slothie
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Default Re: Karen's PICL - PCB available

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusHardware View Post
How long have I been away? When did this happen?

Might it be possible to find an archived version of the site, on waybackmachine or something similar?
Well I used to use a link on mymk14.co.uk to get to it but that has gone too (is that a Paul Robson site too? It refers to him as a 3rd person so I assume not). The link on there retrieved through the wayback machine was http://members.aol.com/mk14emu/ but that just drops to the front page. I've not been able to find any archive of the site anywhere else. Doug Rices has his DOS emulator in an archive on Github but none of the other stuff seems to be there.
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Old 9th Sep 2021, 3:48 pm   #60
Phil__G
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Default Re: Karen's PICL - PCB available

This April snapshot seems complete:
https://web.archive.org/web/20210410.../mymk14.co.uk/

and

https://web.archive.org/web/20040614...l.com/mk14emu/

Last edited by Phil__G; 9th Sep 2021 at 3:56 pm.
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