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Old 31st Mar 2018, 4:46 pm   #161
Radio Wrangler
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Default Re: Electric clocks running slow warning

Someone, somewhere in the UK must see either a financial or political advantage in no longer maintaining control over the long-term average 'grid time'.

That means an advantage for them, not for us, of course...

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Old 31st Mar 2018, 5:02 pm   #162
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Default Re: Electric clocks running slow warning

It's the lack of publicity around the dropping of the "number of cycles in a given (whatever) period" convention that is an annoyance, a liability, even slightly sinister in its evasiveness. When the powers-that-be change other nationally and historically accepted standards, we're usually informed from every corner to the point of tedium. It would only take notification in the press and radio to say something along the lines, those mains-operated clocks you've depended on in the past should no longer be treated as gospel due to changing circumstances, don't be caught out- and there are more alternative sources than ever before.

Of course, many would see this as a diminution of long-established service- and the art of PR is as much about what isn't said as what is....
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Old 31st Mar 2018, 5:18 pm   #163
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Default Re: Electric clocks running slow warning

There is no technical reason why it can't be done here. Our grid is much smaller than the continent's grid, so it would be easier for us to do it. If it is not being done then this must be for political or commercial reasons. Someone somewhere has made a decision but lacks the courage to say so publicly and explain himself. The implementation (but not necessarily the decision) is the responsibility of National Grid so an FoI request to them might winkle out some information.
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Old 31st Mar 2018, 5:35 pm   #164
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Default Re: Electric clocks running slow warning

Totally commercial, it takes some personnel time to do it, that costs money. And it will only effect about 0.01% or much less of the population anyway. So they don't bother and save money too. A shame, the market is the ruler these days.
 
Old 31st Mar 2018, 7:00 pm   #165
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Default Re: Electric clocks running slow warning

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Originally Posted by Dai Corner View Post
But as Marteen from the Netherlands says above, the continental grid is currently 'catching up' having fallen several minutes behind. Is there a technical reason why they can do this but we can't or is it just UK policy not to?
Just checked and all the clocks that I adjusted a week ago to summer time are now four minutes fast. That may be one reason why the UK hasn't bothered.
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Old 31st Mar 2018, 7:08 pm   #166
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Default Re: Electric clocks running slow warning

Just had a Twitter response from Drax Power Station who appear to be upwards-delegating the issue to higher management.

'You could try asking @NGControlRoom'

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Old 1st Apr 2018, 12:16 am   #167
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Default Re: Electric clocks running slow warning

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There is no technical reason why it can't be done here. Our grid is much smaller than the continent's grid, so it would be easier for us to do it. If it is not being done then this must be for political or commercial reasons. Someone somewhere has made a decision but lacks the courage to say so publicly and explain himself. The implementation (but not necessarily the decision) is the responsibility of National Grid so an FoI request to them might winkle out some information.
Apparently National Grid are only subject to the Freedom of Information Act in relation to environmental matters. See https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/body/national_grid_plc

Ofgem as a Government agency would be subject to it but they would probably say that it's not in National Grid's licence terms so nothing to do with them.
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Old 1st Apr 2018, 9:37 am   #168
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Default Re: Electric clocks running slow warning

NG are considered critical national infrastructure. Even the location of their buildings is kept quiet.
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Old 1st Apr 2018, 4:17 pm   #169
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Default Re: Electric clocks running slow warning

Yes. When I worked for CEGB there was a general understanding that we didn't say where control rooms etc. were, even though most staff probably knew. I still stick to that.
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Old 1st Apr 2018, 5:46 pm   #170
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Default Re: Electric clocks running slow warning

We had a tour of the local NG control centre last year, fascinating. Can't tell you where it is are but Google will help...
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Old 2nd Apr 2018, 11:32 am   #171
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Default Re: Electric clocks running slow warning

I do believe that our synchronous clocks have caught up with the correct time again.

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Old 2nd Apr 2018, 12:20 pm   #172
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Default Re: Electric clocks running slow warning

Maybe someone somewhere has been reading this thread?
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Old 2nd Apr 2018, 2:03 pm   #173
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Default Re: Electric clocks running slow warning

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I do believe that our synchronous clocks have caught up with the correct time again.
Just checked mine. It caught up the minute it has lost in just 48 hours
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Old 3rd Apr 2018, 10:59 am   #174
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Default Re: Electric clocks running slow warning

Yes, mine are now almost correct again now

I'm still not holding my breath though. Inside info still welcome.

Cheers,

Nick.
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Old 3rd Apr 2018, 11:58 am   #175
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Default Re: Electric clocks running slow warning

In all the conversations I had with Grid Control (and I had thousands) I never had one about frequency correction. That was in my capacity working in power station control rooms over a 34 year period.
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Old 3rd Apr 2018, 3:01 pm   #176
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Default Re: Electric clocks running slow warning

My memory, albeit from a short training period with our local CEGB power station, was that Grid Control specified the required megawatt output.

They gave us advance notice so that we could turn up the coal input to the chaingrate boilers to generate enough steam for the new power output level. On the other hand, if the new output was to be a reduction on the current level, the boilers would be turned down to avoid blowing the safety valves when the demand reduced.

A synchronous clock had a prominent position in the instrument panel, but I was never sure what we had to do about it!

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Old 3rd Apr 2018, 6:17 pm   #177
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Default Re: Electric clocks running slow warning

Both my aforementioned clock radios have caught up again to within 2 seconds. It would certainly seem that there has been a surreptitious catch-up, as I'm the only one in the house who adjusts them!

As part of my A level studies I went to a ************** which was in the same compound as a sizeable sub-station. This was at the time when the cold war was fading to a dull cherry red, but the coach was pulled to a halt 5 miles out and we were told that under no circumstances were photos to be taken, or the exact location to be communicated to anyone outside the project. Any cameras seen were potentially likely to have the film confiscated and all notes taken were to be checked before we left. This was considered a bit of a joke by us even at the time; the foreign powers they were so nervous about know exactly the nature of such structures above ground, and I am sure they knew 30 years ago!
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Old 4th Apr 2018, 11:22 am   #178
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Default Re: Electric clocks running slow warning

My recollection is that those stations which could do modulation, and whose owners were willing to do it, were sent a 'target MW' and 'target frequency' for each generating unit - usually every 30 minutes. Each such unit will have already agreed some MW vs. frequency slope, say 50MW per Hz. So if you were told 300MW and 50.03Hz, and the actual grid frequency was 50.01Hz you would generate 301MW. (Figures made up, so could be wildly atypical!) This was not a matter of conversation as the instructions were sent electronically, although there may have been some manual intervention to enter them into the unit's control system.

I once visited a grid control room which was on the edge of a city next to a housing estate. They had problems with local youths heaving bricks etc. over the wall, as well as rumours that this was a secret research station doing animal experiments. They decided to bring the local people in to show them what they did. The vandalism was then much reduced.
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Old 4th Apr 2018, 11:43 am   #179
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Default Re: Electric clocks running slow warning

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My recollection is that those stations which could do modulation, and whose owners were willing to do it, were sent a 'target MW' and 'target frequency' for each generating unit - usually every 30 minutes. Each such unit will have already agreed some MW vs. frequency slope, say 50MW per Hz. So if you were told 300MW and 50.03Hz, and the actual grid frequency was 50.01Hz you would generate 301MW. (Figures made up, so could be wildly atypical!) This was not a matter of conversation as the instructions were sent electronically, although there may have been some manual intervention to enter them into the unit's control system...........
This makes sense, but I wonder how it works with wind farms.

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Old 4th Apr 2018, 12:08 pm   #180
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Default Re: Electric clocks running slow warning

They probably don't do modulation. In olden days most coal and oil-fired stations could and did modulate. Nuclear and gas tended not to. We now have a grid with mostly non-modulating units, which may be why the frequency is less stable and takes longer to catch up. Maybe we now have to wait for some windy, sunny weather in order to correct for frequency problems caused by still, cold weather.
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