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Old 24th Mar 2023, 2:12 pm   #81
Nickthedentist
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

I appreciate that, my suggestion was for how you could make it work now, with least disruption
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Old 24th Mar 2023, 2:24 pm   #82
kellymarie
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

On the subject of separate meters for lights and power according to wireless world 1957 piwer is charged at a low rate and so 15 amp sockets are fitted for a few high power devices. The article goes on to discourage fitting 5 amp sockets for radios and small appliances from the 15 amp supply as its strictly forbidden such small appliances should be run on the lighting circuit charged at the higher rate. I think the article is saying that its bad practice to run a 5 amp outlet off a power circuit because the socket wouldn't have adequate protection but I'm sure lots of people did to take advantage of cheaper power.
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Old 24th Mar 2023, 2:41 pm   #83
Lucien Nunes
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

Simply changing to wireless switches wouldn't work, because the problem is not (as usual) a lack of conductors from downstairs to upstairs. The bottleneck here is the twin running from the downstairs light to switch, as we require PL, SL and N. Wireless switching could only solve the problem by adding a receiver at the downstairs light.

If one is going to fit anything at that point, there's no need for wireless switching if one uses a load-sensing circuit. The switch cable from the downstairs light is converted to a permanent feed and the 2-way arranged to control only the upstairs light. A load sensing circuit (possibly just a suitable relay in series) at the downstairs light monitors the switch cable and controls the downstairs light in response to the load from the upstairs one.

I don't know whether running an extra cable in the loft from the upstairs light to another point would count as more or less destructive than fitting the gadgetry to the downstairs light. This could be used to bring a neutral to the top light, with the 3rd core in the 3C+E then used as SL back to the downstairs light. The upstairs and downstairs lights would need to be on the same circuit to prevent this being a non-compliant 'borrowed neutral.' No problem load-wise with today's low wattage LEDs, but falls foul of the requirement to design to avoid inconvenience, as a single lighting circuit will put all lighting out of use in the event of a single fault.

Then we get to the bodgy options. Series-connected 120V lamps have been mentioned but this only works reliably with tungsten. LED lamps with SMPSU drive (not capacitive dropper) could be powered with full-voltage half-wave by shunting each lampholder with a diode (making sure the two point in opposite directions) however this would stress the internal reservoir capacitor with increased ripple. To avoid this, the other half cycle could be rectified and smoothed in each point to feed the lamp DC, at the risk of nasty things happening with the wrong kind of lamp fitted and any lampholder being used at a non-compliant voltage in excess of 250V.

I'm not sure if the reference to twin cable means it's pre-1966 and without CPC, but if the switch drop is twin and earth, many builders would simply repurpose the CPC in the switch drop T+E as the neutral and walk away whistling.
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Old 24th Mar 2023, 3:57 pm   #84
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

I left the wiring unaltered and simply fitted 120 volt, 60 watt lamps.
Later to save energy I fitted fluorescent lights, each with a 22 watt circular lamp, bypassed the ballast in one fitting. 2 lamps will run in series from one ballast.
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Old 24th Mar 2023, 6:30 pm   #85
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

Some elderly friends in the US told me that when they were growing up in Alabama, there was always an electric lamp permanently burning on the verandah of each home: it was the local method of providing street lighting, it was connected to the supply between the company fuse and the meter, they say it was not unknown for some ingeniously arranged 'long circuits' to provide power to higher consumption electrical apparatus within the home, to provide a bit of free energy!
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Old 31st Mar 2023, 2:58 pm   #86
kellymarie
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

You can't blame people for that im sure anyone with a bit if technical noise would if taken advantage of the free supply. Bit like in Europe where there were 2 phase mains 127 volts to earth 220 between only one phase was metered so many 120 volt US appliances and even russian made TVs were run off the unmetered side the return wire was usually a copper or lead water main. This is im told why they invented the RCD so people couldn't do it not sure how true that is but sounds about right
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Old 20th May 2023, 8:37 am   #87
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

Yes, many European supplies were 3 phase, 4 wire with 127 volts between phase and neutral and 220 volts between phases.

Domestically any two phases were supplied, only one of which was metered.

Dishonest persons discovered that free electricity, though only at 127 volts, could be obtained between the unmetered phase and a metal water pipe.
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Old 20th May 2023, 4:49 pm   #88
Leon Crampin
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

Philips sets designed in Holland nearly always had a 127V mains tap...

Leon.
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Old 20th May 2023, 8:16 pm   #89
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Default Re: Every day is a schoolday. House lighting circuits from the past.

Probably no need to replace the garage fitting. At the heritage railway where I volunteer, we have numerous 4' and 5' fluorescent lamps in the offices, shops and workshops. As the tubes fail, we fit LED tubes that can simply replace the old tubes. The starters have to be removed and replaced by shorting "starters" that the tubes are supplied with. Where access is not a problem, we do remove the old ballasts and capacitors as per the tubes' instruction leaflets.

Last edited by emeritus; 20th May 2023 at 8:18 pm. Reason: typos
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