The Audiophoolery Thread.

[Jez1234]

Having spent probably more hours trying to slay the audiophool dragon than anyone in their right mind should even contemplate, here's a few observations....

Never in many years of this have I seen any audiophool recant any of their deluded beliefs, not once, not even when presented with evidence that what they believe would have to break the laws of physics to work. They will in fact respond that obviously the laws of physics are wrong or our present understanding of them is insufficient to explain what they imagine they hear.

“It's Easier to Fool People Than It Is to Convince Them That They Have Been Fooled.” – Mark Twain.

I have tried explaining, at length, and in as much of a layman friendly way as possible, just why it's impossible for a mains lead to effect the sound... that in some specific PSU there are two stages of voltage regulation and RC filtering on top of the main smoothing caps etc and that the line rejection is >140dB. It goes over their heads usually and then I'm told that they can clearly hear different mains cables and even different fuses in the plug etc anyway and therefore everything I've explained counts for nothing and must be wrong...

Rather a giveaway and an obvious one at that, but all or almost all audiophool products can be simply plugged in/unplugged etc without any technical knowledge whatsoever and without even needing to solder or to remove the lid from any item of equipment... Which of course nicely maximises the potential market for foo accesories...

.... because when it comes to anything going on under the cover it's "here be dragons" and best left in the hands of experts.... "but I thought it was 'we don't need experts' and that they are all thick and deaf cos they can't hear night and day differences between fuses and pieces of wire??.. So how can they manage to design an amplifier if they don't understand even wire?" Oh erm yeah well look over there it's a dog on a skateboard! nothing to see here!

The layman audiophool is bombarded with lies and BS about audiophoolery from every direction, complete blanket coverage of it, until things that are not even possible become "accepted wisdom" and to the extent that when you try to explain, with your technical hat on, that as an EE audio designer, ex chief engineer with well known hi fi brands etc, that such and such is not even credible and they are "being had"... they not only don't believe you but actually doubt that you know what you are talking about! After all every hi fi magazine, forum, dealer, manufacturer is telling them that kettle leads and fuses make a big difference and all these "reputable sources" can't be wrong!!??

Finally (for now) what I reckon to be the most salient point of all and that IMHO defines the "engineers V audiophools" debate/war...
Hi fi equipment, amplifiers, phono stages, pre amps etc anyway, IS electronics, and therefore, IMHO anyway, one cannot claim to have any real knowledge or understanding of hi fi equipment when you do not even understand Ohm's Law, haven't a clue what an emitter follower or a buffer is, have never heard of a Darlington pair or a cascode and have no idea what NFB actually is or does!

This reality is to an audiophool as garlic and crosses to a vampire. It must never be discussed or acknowledged.
No way is an audiophool of 30 years standing, who's spent say £40K over this time, read all the main comics and travelled around the country to all the shows, going to admit/accept that he has no real knowledge of anything that matters! Oh no no no!

Absolutely no way can those with the knowledge of how the equipment actually works etc be allowed any "elevated status" that not even £40K expenditure and a collection of 20 years worth of bound copies of "Hi Fi News" can "buy them into"! Hence the "pro's", "experts" etc must be pitied and mocked for "not getting" that the key to it all is magic fuses, enchanted kettle leads etc etc!

And on that bombshell...

[knobtwiddler]

The worst thing you can do in audiophool circles, particularly pro ones, is suggest that A/B/X tests have any merit. This is possibly the no.1 means of engendering their ire. You will immediately find yourself excommunicated.

[knobtwiddler]

Oooh! feedback? That's got errors in it. I'm not having any of that!

But even the amps that have 5 or 6 figure price tags which eschew global feedback have pedestrian THD specs. Wouldn't you consider the mediocre THD an 'error'? I've spoken to believers who consider the evils of FB to be worse than moving the THD a couple of decimal points.

[Jez1234]

I've noticed a trend whence amps that maybe manage say 0.001% THD will be quoted merely as "<1% THD" (or maybe 0.1%). No doubt if it measures really well it must be rubbish...

However I wouldn't say that feedback gets much attention in audiophool circles really. Too technical! I'd say I see 100 posts about cable of one type or another for every 1 on feedback. I've tried hammering home the vast importance of NFB to audiophools several times and there has been very little interest, maybe 6 replies to a thread I've started. Then someone will start a thread asking something like "Which is more important? Speakers or mains leads?" and it will go on for weeks and get 200 replies!

[GrimJosef]

Originally Posted by knobtwiddler

... Wouldn't you consider the mediocre THD an 'error'? I've spoken to believers who consider the evils of FB to be worse than moving the THD a couple of decimal points.

They'll point out that if the harmonics are basically just 2nd and 3rd and don't amount to more than, say, 0.5% total they'll be inaudible. If they're at 1-2% then they'll just add a bit of inoffensive 'sweetness' to the sound. Under some circumstances it's possible for NFB to suppress the total down to <0.1% but to shift what's left to a good deal higher in the spectrum. 0.1% made of up 7th, 9th, 13th etc might actually be worse than sticking with the 2nd and 3rd.

I should say that my experience is mostly in valve amps. The 40dB of NFB needed to get two decimal points improvement isn't usually possible there, output transformers being what they are.

Cheers,

GJ

[Radio Wrangler]

The principles of negative feedback aren't limited to electronics. If they truly eschewed it, think of their car crashes, their fallings off of bicycles, walkings into street lamps....

Life as a true audiophile would be rather painful... and short.

But if you do something they interpret as criticising their belief system, they will attack. Don't draw any critical cartoons of their exalted leaders. Any form of applying scientific method or reasoning is a grave threat to them.

My favourite is that I built some equipment for myself. It is clearly rather professionally made, but has no badges, no overt brands. If some audio believer sees or hears it they don't know what they're supposed to say about it. They daren't trust their ears because they might voice a different opinion to what an accredited pundit may have said or possibly will say. They really are quite disaccommodated. Fun!

In a way it is direct proof that these people cannot, without prior suggestion, hear those things that they talk about and spend so much money on.... And they actually know it, deep down inside.

I was once shown a cartoon in one of those very very serious audiophool magazines, the photocopied A5 sort, in the late 80's, and one page was given to a drawing of a boxing match between Alan Sugar and Ivor T. I didn't see the point. It just looked childish.

David

[Jez1234]

The above phenomena was reported way back by "Cathode Ray" (M G Scroggie) and then in great detail by Peter Baxandall around 1978 in a series of articles in which he describes the differing effects of using an exponential or square law device on this.

There has been speculation that at say 13th harmonic even levels of <0.1% can be not only audible but unpleasantly so. In a letter to Wireless World, John Linsley Hood recounted an experiment in which he claimed that under certain carefully controlled conditions 0.002% of a high order harmonic was reliably audible! I can't recall the exact conditions but I believe both the fundamental and "fake" harmonic were, for the sake of the experiment, square waves and that the phase of the added 0.002% was critical...

[Craig Sawyers]

Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler

For that price, do you get to choose someone for them to apply their 1,000,000 volt quantum treatment to? It could be a front for the mafia. Seems a shame to waste all that effort on a little lump of metal.

Maybe the 1,000,000V treatment uses one of these https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibJYu5fvHkk

For a good example of what that voltage actually looks like

1MV, about a yard of spark, I don't think the TDA7440 chip (four input preamplifier chip with tone and volume controls) that I am playing with at the moment would like it at all. I think I will paint it green.

[Craig Sawyers]

Originally Posted by Jez1234

The above phenomena was reported way back by "Cathode Ray" (M G Scroggie) and then in great detail by Peter Baxandall around 1978 in a series of articles in which he describes the differing effects of using an exponential or square law device on this.

There has been speculation that at say 13th harmonic even levels of <0.1% can be not only audible but unpleasantly so. In a letter to Wireless World, John Linsley Hood recounted an experiment in which he claimed that under certain carefully controlled conditions 0.002% of a high order harmonic was reliably audible! I can't recall the exact conditions but I believe both the fundamental and "fake" harmonic were, for the sake of the experiment, square waves and that the phase of the added 0.002% was critical...

An interesting exercise on distortion audibility is here http://www.klippel.de/listeningtest/ . This is actually focused on loudspeaker nonlinearities of different types, and not amplifier distortion. But it is rather surprising how insensitive the ear is to distortion.

Listen either on a good stereo system, or decent headphones.

Craig

[PJL]

Originally Posted by Jez1234

There has been speculation that at say 13th harmonic even levels of <0.1% can be not only audible but unpleasantly so. In a letter to Wireless World, John Linsley Hood recounted an experiment in which he claimed that under certain carefully controlled conditions 0.002% of a high order harmonic was reliably audible! I can't recall the exact conditions but I believe both the fundamental and "fake" harmonic were, for the sake of the experiment, square waves and that the phase of the added 0.002% was critical...

It's easy to put together proof of this...just take a 20Hz sinewave, add 13th harmonic and put it through even the most expensive hi-fi system .

Distortion tests with single frequency continuous sine waves draw parallels with the diesel emissions scandal. The audio industry have avoided introducing a meaningful test for audio reproduction quality and the message has always been 'you need to do a listening test'. It would hardly be beyond their engineering capability to come up with a standard test environment, use reference 'real' music, and report on detected differences.

Trouble is that it would probably turn out that the perfect audio reproduction system is just too bland and uninteresting .

[Radio Wrangler]

Originally Posted by PJL

Trouble is that it would probably turn out that the perfect audio reproduction system is just too bland and uninteresting .

Which means that the recording was bland and uninteresting, which could mean that that's what the performance sounded like.

I've always thought that the people who feel the need to add distortion must find live music terribly disappointing.

David

[Valvepower]

Hello,

Sorry, but I take umbrage to being compared to the diesel emissions scandal. I have worked in the audio industry, both professional and hi-fi since leaving School and I am not ashamed to admit it, in fact I’m proud of it. Overall, they are honest bunch of people and engineers doing their job. I have worked with world renowned Mastering engineers, “Celebrity” company owners and Rock Guitarists and enjoyed every moment of!

I am again, getting very tired with the digs towards audio electronics engineers and their industry.

I’m really, really sorry if I upset some folks, but I had to get this off my chest as this thread was starting to eat away at me again!

Regards
Terry

[GrimJosef]

Originally Posted by PJL

... The audio industry have avoided introducing a meaningful test for audio reproduction quality ... It would hardly be beyond their engineering capability to come up with a standard test environment, use reference 'real' music, and report on detected differences.

Peter Walker at Quad was doing such 'subtraction' tests in the 1960's/70's. I don't think there was ever a standard source, not least because you'd quickly get into conflict over which aspects of the system it was trying to test (e.g. behaviour close to clipping, for the thrash metal enthusiasts, or noise distortion at exquisitely low levels, for fans of the clavichord).

Cheers,

GJ

[Craig Sawyers]

I'm with you there Terry. Most amplifier manufacturers have sophisticated test gear like Audio Precision, and measure everything to do with the performance of an amp.

The problem is in presenting this to Joe Public in a way that would be meaningful and understood.

There are exceptions, such as https://neurochrome.com/ and https://www.hypex.nl/ , who publish comprehensive performance data.

Most audio companies (certainly in the UK) are really rather small, with turnover of a few million, and have small dedicated and talented teams; many of whom I know personally.

Don't get me wrong - I have ridiculed at length on this thread the crazy paraphenalia and psuedo not-even-scientific language used to sell them. Most of which is for US products where there is little consumer protection. Witness the fuses that supposedly have been treated with a million V.

Let's divert for a moment to unpack that claim. He could mean 1 million *electron* volts - the energy of a gamma ray photon. Now where would you get such a thing? Well some get to earth from cosmic rays entering the atmosphere. You get them close to lightning strikes. Or you could be really dangerous and use a cobalt-60 source, which need interlocked doors and elaborate safety measures.

Or alternatively 1MeV is 1.6x10^-13J, so if you dropped a weight of 2.3g (the weight of a 13A fuse) by 60 picometers the fuse would dissipate the same energy.

Or the fuse manufacturer could be talking total b*llocks of course.

Craig

[Jez1234]

I'm also an audio EE in the hi fi industry but in some regards take a very different view to Terry's.

Most (unfortunately not all!) actual audio designers etc are honest people who do a good job but the companies they work for are often less scrupulous (the company Terry works for are one of the most honest ones BTW!).

In this industry things have reached a point where there is no doubt a similar amount of profit derived from BS "foo" accessories as from sales of actual equipment...maybe more! Indeed there are many businesses which specialise in selling magic fuses, enchanted kettle leads, coax leads and speaker cables which we are lead to believe do things Mr Ohm hadn't dreamt of etc.
For the benefit of those who hadn't realised just how silly it's all become, there are even "earthing boxes" available, which consist of a wooden box, often elaborately veneered and polished, filled with... yep earth, soil (no I'm not joking) and equipped with gold plated binding posts to which one is supposed to connect earthing wires going to each item of equipment. They can cost £5000.

Everywhere a hi fi enthusiast looks he is bombarded with advertising for these products. The hi fi magazines carry advertising for them and even review them "with a straight face" as if it is normal and expected for a kettle lead to transform sound quality.
It has now long been the case that it is accepted wisdom to any non technical audiophile that such products not only genuinely work but that one would be a fool to eschew them from ones hi fi system as you would then be hearing only say 80% of the true capability of the equipment.

People such as myself, and no doubt most of the contributors to this forum, are regarded as dangerous heretics or idiots! Many, many times on hi fi forums I've had some bloke who admits he can't wire a 13A plug, and works as say a brick layer, getting into a very heated argument with me (and after I've explained that I design hi fi equipment professionally), and telling me that if I don't agree that a magic fuse can transform the sound then I'm obviously a charlatan etc!

I reserve my greatest ire though for those companies and engineers who've "gone to the dark side". The simple fact that they successfully and competently design and manufacture hi fi equipment tells us that they know better... but the lure of all that profit has decided that they also sell magic mains leads and their own branded speaker cables etc etc, and, obviously, will thence defend the efficacy of such things against any critics.

It's easy to see why as no doubt their own marketing dept will be only too keen to point out that there's a huge and very profitable market for such foo and that many customers even expect them to make such products.

A true story sums it up well I reckon... I was chief engineer with a now defunct London based hi fi company and one day several of us were laughing at the idea of people spending silly money on branded magic speaker cables when our financial director came and joined in and after agreeing with us then said "of course if we can get some cable made with our branding on it we'll have to recommend it above all others, bottom line and all that guys!"

[wd40addict]

Maybe this thread has run its course, the Audiophile Genii isn't going back in its bottle any time soon.

The rot set in during the 80s, I used to buy 'Hi-Fi Answers' and its strapline was something like 'the technical magazine that solves your buying queries'. This was true, it had articles explaining technical matters in reasonable layman terms. Over time there was a shift of emphasis into the subjective properties of first loudspeaker cables, then cables in general, then Peter Beltism, green pens etc, etc. The strapline morphed into 'defines state of the art' and every month they'd review a £500 cartridge and a megabucks US amp. I gave up buying it at that point.

The non-technical Hi-Fi enthusiast has now had 35 years of reading this stuff and it has become the accepted norm. Any technical arguments can always be shot down with 'I trust my ears'.

Interesting to note that items like Quad electrostatics, Tannoy dual concentrics, Garrard 301s, Radford amplifiers etc, etc are still highly prized and sought after despite being developed without guru level mains leads etc...

For the record I have heard differences between LS cables and capacitors, but never interconnects, mains leads, green pens etc. Obviously my hearing isn't good enough!

[Radio Wrangler]

The core of the problem is that a great number of the end users of posh hifi equipment aren't educated well enough in the sciences to be able to tell pseudoscience from the real thing. Marketing departments, without stern oversight from someone with scruples, will try to cash in on anything they can. It's what they're measured on in their annual reviews. Their job security relies on it. History has shown that they can get away with saying almost anything in terms of opinions on the sound. It's what allows all those 'XXXXXX Washes Whiter!' adverts we've suffered for most of a century.

Let's break it down into sections:

The designers

There are some perfectly good engineers designing audio equipment, doing the electronics, doing the maths, looking for new techniques and new components.

There are some good designers who aren't given the proper freedom, they're told the new model must use YYYYYY devices, or no feedback or wire extruded from the purest Mithril. These things having been chosen for marketing reasons.

Then there are supposed 'designers' who are just copiers, taking a bit from here, a bit from there with no real overall design. Working blind, really, and only surviving because the underlying technology is quite a bit better than would be noticed, so the disadvantages of their rearrangements can be survived.

The Marketeers

Marketing works in inbound and outbound directions. Inbound looks at the way the market is moving, surveys customers desires and picks a direction for the company to move in hoping to maximise success, usually measured in pound notes. The inbound marketing provides steering to the design engineers. Markets are not homogeneous nor are they necessarily not self-destructive not necessarily sane. But a marketing department will show where the richest seam of money lies. It takes someone in overall command with a VERY strong will to go against the marketeers. Or someone with overall command and a very strong will to provide shelter so that marketeers can choose the best profit direction while still choosing to make rationally designed products. These exceptions are especially laudable because of all the forces stacked against them.

The Press

The hifi consumer press discovered Jeremy Clarksonism. It sold magazines (or web adverts) if strong statements were made. THey discovered this in the early eighties, long before Mr Clarkson hit his stride, but he's an illustrative example nowadays. It matteres less whether what was said was true than whether it was attention grabbing.

Yes, there remained some measured and careful publications, but you had to look for them and you didn't find Studio Sound on the Smiths' magazine stand at the station. The marketing departments at the publishing houses saw where the profits were and their bosses were greedy.

The Punters

Believe it or not, there are people who know what's what buying hifi equipment. But they're a bit in the minority and they're quiet by nature. So much of thei industry is off chasing the profligate, loud and ignorant end of the market.

Some hifi buyers read what they are supposed to hear, and must talk themselves into believing they hear it. Others must know they don't hear it, but the psychology of the onslaught on the web and magazines convinces them that they'd better not admit it.

Some hifi buyers don't give a rat's ass (I've never known a rat that owned an ass...) and just want to be seen with some very expensive 'jewellery' to show off their wealth.

So, yes, there are still some fine people in the hifi business, but I don't think life's easy for them.

In the UK, 'Engineer' is respected more than 'double glazing salesman' and I'm not sure about estate agent, it seems to be neck and neck. Also the public don't know the difference between a design engineer and just a stylist.

So when a newspaper column announces the Duchess of thingummybob is wearing a dress by Hartnell, they could also have pointed out that in that part of London, the fact that she wasn't also up to her knees in raw sewage, thanks to the work of Mr Bazalgette, never gets mentioned. We engineers are so successful in our endeavours that we can be forgotten about. So we are.

David

[Craig Sawyers]

"In the UK, 'Engineer' is respected more than 'double glazing salesman'"

I chuckled at that. It is a long story, but the new CEO of a company that I worked for as a consultant supplying services as CTO, hired an old mate of his who was (seriously) a double glazing salesman, as my replacement. Then made my life so difficult that I chucked in the towel and walked away.

Needless to say said company went the hell on a handcart.

Craig

PS great post!

[mark_in_manc]

It's alarming that the profit-motive has raddled even education (and, even, _engineering_ education) in the world of audio. I used to be a lecturer of acoustics. Marketing BS and a commerical approach has given birth to courses whose income supports the 'real' work, but which exploit those studying on them in the same way as the punters who buy the products highlighted on this thread, are exploited. It's a large part of why I no longer do it.