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Old 13th Jul 2021, 10:06 pm   #61
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Default Re: The end of physical media.

Possibly Sainsbury are only stocking what they sell most of, and two things would put me off buying CDs there. Little choice ( as I find that a pack of CD's ,once the plastic is off ) needs to be stored properly). Hence, I only buy CDs in small quantities. And Sainsbury only stock CD in packs of 10 or more. Price. They are far more expensive than other High street competitors. DVDs also fall into these two categories. CDs I can see falling in demand as the capacity (storage ) falls. Then there's demand. It's about cash. Why pay circa 10- 20 for a large pack of CD/DVD, when I can buy ( possibly infrior quality) from an other store for a lot less. Burn whatever they call "music" to a DVD, and play it for the time it takes to become out of date in whatever source they choose, and then at that proce it's "throwabay" .
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Old 13th Jul 2021, 10:43 pm   #62
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... I don't listen to [ducks behind the crenellations] pop music. I think that it is essentially commercial ephemera, repeated ad nauseum ... If you can call it music. But I have 100s of classical and jazz CDs ...
Mozart was pretty popular/commercial in his day ... although it seems he spent his money as easily as he earned it and ended up dying in some financial difficulty at a relatively young age (very 'rock and roll', as they say).

When it comes to things being ephemeral, we are lucky to have as much of J S Bach's work as we do, given the minor regard it seems it was held in before the 'Bach Revival' took hold, well into the 19th century. This, despite the number of musical children he had, most of whom don't seem to have taken much trouble to preserve his compositions !

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Old 14th Jul 2021, 12:41 am   #63
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Default Re: The end of physical media.

Joseph Haydn was shamelessly commercial, quickly knocking off symphonies in bulk to keep the money coming in. Most didn't sound much different to the others. A few were outstanding. The Stock, Aitken and Waterman of his day.

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Old 14th Jul 2021, 9:42 am   #64
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Joseph Haydn was shamelessly commercial, quickly knocking off symphonies in bulk to keep the money coming in. Most didn't sound much different to the others. A few were outstanding. The Stock, Aitken and Waterman of his day.

David
Most of Haydn's music was paid for by patrons until late in his career. In any case any one of his symphonies is much more musically interesting than 99% of the productions of the pop music industry, particularly Stock, Aitken and Waterman.The same goes for Mozart and Bach.
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Old 14th Jul 2021, 11:58 am   #65
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Default Re: The end of physical media.

Sorry, I was trying to make the point that a number of classical composers wrote music on an industrial scale, under pressure to keep turning out stuff for their patrons on a regular basis. Amongst this there were special works, the ones they wanted to do out of their own interest. The sheer amount of Bach's output for the organ is staggering, but a lot of it isn't very special compared to the better pieces... the ones I'll bother to learn and practice.

Modern pop pap isn't anything like as interesting as most of the classical stuff, and on top of it all, the recordings are compressed into less than 3dB dynamic range.

There seems to be a modern formula, and very very few dare stray from it. The few that do mustn't be overlooked. They are the only hope left.

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Old 14th Jul 2021, 12:09 pm   #66
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Default Re: The end of physical media.

I don't think that's quite accurate, David - the modern formula isn't too different from the Bach or Haydn formula (or what's put GAP to the wall) - find what sells and rehash it. However, the chart formula of big sales means that end of things is overexposed, not that musical creativity has been funnelled and limited since the classical era.

A quick trip to Bandcamp will show hundreds of thousands of imaginative artists of all genres, who, to bring things back on topic a little, will often be releasing on physical media! I've bought new CDs, LPs, 7"s and cassettes on there recently. The website tells me that yesterday 57,844 records were purchased there.
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Old 15th Jul 2021, 2:50 pm   #67
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I don't think that's quite accurate, David - the modern formula isn't too different from the Bach or Haydn formula (or what's put GAP to the wall) - find what sells and rehash it.
That's just nonsense.
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Old 15th Jul 2021, 5:00 pm   #68
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Quote:
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I don't think that's quite accurate, David - the modern formula isn't too different from the Bach or Haydn formula (or what's put GAP to the wall) - find what sells and rehash it.
That's just nonsense.
We're all entitled to our opinions, surely ? I didn't agree with your opinion here

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... In any case any one of his symphonies is much more musically interesting than 99% of the productions of the pop music industry ...
but I didn't dismiss it.

Getting back to the original topic, I see the parliamentary DCMS committee has taken a dim view of practices in the streaming industry https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-57838473, presumably compared with artists' revenues back when physical media were dominant.

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Old 15th Jul 2021, 10:17 pm   #69
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Default Re: The end of physical media.

I'm happy with my records, the way they sound, feel, look etc. The soundtrack of my life was/is on my records and I like being in the clutter of my collection,

I use streaming as well but mainly music while I work or in the background when people come round. For me it is usurping radio more than physical media. I've gained quite a few new artists from the "recommended for you" selections, surprising how quickly the streamer has learned my tastes. A bit chilling how easily the sophistication of me could be cracked open! What else do they know??
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Old 16th Jul 2021, 11:16 am   #70
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Default Re: The end of physical media.

Over the years the demise of more ‘traditional’ technologies, or perhaps that should be ‘preceding’ technologies since in the great scheme of things they are all fairly recent, in favour of some emerging technology has been regularly predicted. Cinema was going to be supplanted by TV; and the end of the book has been predicted for decades, yet there they are – even on the shelves of Sainsbury’s. There are as many books being produced as ever was, perhaps many more.

I have accumulated many vinyl records, CDs, DVDs and books over the years. Admittedly there have been phases where I binged a little. Records in my youth, and CDs when the records I hadn’t got the spending power in my youth to buy came out on CD. It’s fair to say that my CD buying now is down to the very occasional. A classical box set of CBSO recordings is, I think, my only purchase this year. Basically, I have pretty much got all those I want, and I do listen to many frequently. Others may have had fewer plays but I like the action of being able to browse along my shelves and pick something out I haven’t heard for ages. This browsing can be random and the very randomness is due to the presence of a physical object. With an LP there is the experience of the packaging, liner notes, and the action of playing a collection of the order intended. This is an experience diminished to some extent with CDs and gone with online listening. I am less inclined to scroll through menus and contents on a computer or whatever and the serendipitious activity wouldn’t occur at all if I had give some command to a listening device in the room. I also like the idea that all I need is a player and an electricity supply to hear them. No worries about flaky internet connections or wi-fi traffic.

Books are even better with, at a basic level, available daylight (plus now a decent pair of spectacles) all that is required for me to use that technology. As with CDs I like to browse the shelves and frequently revisit my books; plus, beyond pulp fiction, the tactile and visual sensation of a nicely printed book cannot be replicated on a screen. In these current days I am enjoying my books more than ever. I have spent too much of my life in front of a screen so am glad to be away.

My collection of DVDs is smaller but I have found some gems in charity shops and in the case of classic films and series do tend to get more than one outing – and as with CDs and books the random browsing applies.

I also like the fact that physical items, if original editions or close to original, are of their period and are as they were intended to be produced. We live in a time where much revision is taking place and modern versions, especially those available online may be edited through a modern prism of sensibilities. (Though a discussion of the value or otherwise of such revisions is strictly not for here.)

As for digital storage, I have many photographs, etc., stored on drives. The ‘all the eggs in one basket’ worries me, especially as drives have got bigger and I now have several back-ups of each. When I have found the occasional CD that has failed I am comforted that at least it is only one whereas a failed drive with years of material is a disaster.

Finally, having been an early adopter of much technology, I have come to a point where I prefer to keep things simple. My vinyl, CDs, DVDs and books can be enjoyed using equipment I have had for years, in some cases decades, away from the rat race of constantly upgrading technology and programmed obsolesence.

Ultimately, I recognise that it will all be obsolete; but then so will I.

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Old 16th Jul 2021, 12:13 pm   #71
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Default Re: The end of physical media.

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Originally Posted by Junk Box Nick View Post

Finally, having been an early adopter of much technology, I have come to a point where I prefer to keep things simple. My vinyl, CDs, DVDs and books can be enjoyed using equipment I have had for years, in some cases decades, away from the rat race of constantly upgrading technology and programmed obsolesence.

Ultimately, I recognise that it will all be obsolete; but then so will I.
Amen to that!
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Old 17th Jul 2021, 2:59 pm   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barretter View Post
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Originally Posted by Uncle Bulgaria View Post
I don't think that's quite accurate, David - the modern formula isn't too different from the Bach or Haydn formula (or what's put GAP to the wall) - find what sells and rehash it.
That's just nonsense.
We're all entitled to our opinions, surely ? I didn't agree with your opinion here

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Originally Posted by barretter View Post
... In any case any one of his symphonies is much more musically interesting than 99% of the productions of the pop music industry ...
but I didn't dismiss it.



GJ
What Uncle Bulgaria said about Bach and Haydn wasn't expressed as an opinion but as a fact. It's not true.
I expressed my opinion about contemporary pop music vis-a-vis any Haydn symphony. Am I not entitled to?
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Old 17th Jul 2021, 6:45 pm   #73
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Default Re: The end of physical media.

Uncle Bulgaria started with the words "I don't think", so I assumed he was going on to talk about what he thought i.e. his opinion.

I did read the bit where you stated "... any one of his symphonies is much more musically interesting ..." (my bold). I can't find the bit where you said that that was just your opinion. But I knew it had to be, because if it was a hard fact then everyone, including my pop-loving teenage nieces and nephews, would have to agree with it, and I'd bet my pension that they don't . So I did call it an opinion, as you just have, and of course you're absolutely entitled to it .

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Old 17th Jul 2021, 7:06 pm   #74
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Uncle Bulgaria started with the words "I don't think", so I assumed he was going on to talk about what he thought i.e. his opinion.
Just what I intended, GJ. I have no intention of starting an argument, though an exchange of different views is indeed welcome!

All composers have always been trying to find patronage or the big hit to put bread on the table, so much was, and is, what we might think of as hack work. That doesn't mean it doesn't have value, or that certain transcendental works haven't outlived their purpose and patronage to become universal.

However, I think it's interesting that a lot of music being released today (on a variety of physical media) is purely artistic rather than commercial - if one discounts the charts and their scientific hook-writing - done by people in their bedrooms and released without a record label or significant outlay. I don't think that's been the case nearly so much in the past.

I find much of the classical repertoire leaves me cold, though I enjoy the Early Music Show, and certainly prefer Graham Fitkin to Mozart. Recently Swedish punk has been occupying my record player, as I found the exuberance, loose and lashed-up nature of it a wonderful tonic during the pandemic. I doubt anyone will write retrospectives about ShitKid, but their music really hit the spot for me recently, and the record covers are marvellous!
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Old 17th Jul 2021, 8:26 pm   #75
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Default Re: The end of physical media.

I agree with Uncle B.

I have had a Deutsche Grammophon recording of David & Igor Oistrach's performance in Bach's Violin Concerto since I don't know when, probably 1970 (ish) when I was just a young lad (Into Blues, Stax, Atlantic and Motown) I've always found it sounded very musical, full and inspiring:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tmo8SDQNCDA

But broken down to simple riffs it sounds less so:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_AmMYo95e0

All very complimentary just like it's always been.

What I'm trying to say is it's the repeating of the simple stuff in a favourable order that gets the hits and Bach and the like were no exception.

Lawrence.

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Old 17th Jul 2021, 9:25 pm   #76
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Default Re: The end of physical media.

I was broken hearted about 10 rears ago when a cd rasterman vibrations by Bob Marley failed The lp version still exists On talking with with data colleagues ias informed that Cd were and are not considered as permanent storage medium
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 8:16 am   #77
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Default Re: The end of physical media.

We often bang on about MP3 and other forms of digital recordings that are lossy and they dont sound good or artifacts can be heard.
I find this at times quite hypocritical as so many of us have hearing problems anyway and are not able to hear the range the human ear can resolve.
It you suffer from tinnitus or have restricted top end like me (9Khz tops) then you are not able to enjoy the music properly in the first place no matter the medium it's stored on.
I find MP3 fine for my limited hearing as I do AM radio.
Perhaps we should all take hearing tests first.
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 8:51 am   #78
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Default Re: The end of physical media.

There is still a place for physical media even in such highly-automated places as radio stations. In the local stations I've worked at over the past 25-odd years the CD has always been a sort of lingua-Franca in amongst the server-based tunes, vinyl, carts, minidisks. There always seems to be a CD machine for a new release, a specialist music show, music a guest brings in - that sort of ad-hockery.

I also find making a "mix-tape" onto a CD is great for sharing with family. I'm particularly keen on avoiding non-original recordings, even when the re-make is by the original artist. One of the streaming services I subscribe to has way too many re-makes for my liking - it also has playback levels that are all over the place.

When an artist releases an album (generally talking CD here) there is a certain flow to the tracks - it's part of the original creative process. I find that selecting a CD or even vinyl LP maintains that flow, especially when tracks flow into each other like Abbey Road and Out Of The Blue.

As for playback quality of e.g. MP3 - I agree with the above, for my own listening. I have very limited HF and have had tinitus for years. Still loving the music though!

Graham
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 1:31 pm   #79
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I also find making a "mix-tape" onto a CD is great for sharing with family. I'm particularly keen on avoiding non-original recordings, even when the re-make is by the original artist. One of the streaming services I subscribe to has way too many re-makes for my liking - it also has playback levels that are all over the place.
As for playback quality of e.g. MP3 - I agree with the above, for my own listening. I have very limited HF and have had tinitus for years. Still loving the music though!

Graham
I tend to be the other way round: I positively enjoy the whole remix-experience - specially when it involves an artist remixing something rather outside their usual repertoire [a rap-artist remixing Enya!]

Quite a bit of my digital-music collection is actually playlists consisting of the same track as remixed/sampled by 10 or so different artists in different styles.

I also like the whole thing where an artist releases half a dozen versions of a track: the original version (which is the one most people will know about) a dub remix, an extended remix, a vocal-trance remix, a dance remix, a chillout-remix etc. - and being able to search/listen online gets me access to all these variants (many of which have never been officially released in the UK on any kind of physical media).

"Reworked" music - classical performed on modern instruments - is another genre I'm particularly fond of. Wendy Carlos's version of Beethoven's Ninth, or Isao Tomita's version of the Firebird for example. I ponder what 'classical' composers would have been able to achieve if they'd not been constrained by instruments-of-their-era and had access to modern synthesizers, mixing-desks etc!

In terms of hearing the music on different media and the compromises involved, I have profound hearing-loss [something like 50dB down] below 300Hz as the result of an explosion - but my hearing is still good up to 18KHz. I like my treble-boost!
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Old 18th Jul 2021, 4:03 pm   #80
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Isao Tomita's version of the Firebird for example.
Utterly, utterly, wonderful. Anyone who's never heard it is likely to have a nice surprise, no matter what their preferred genre.

Tomita's synthesised whistling is rather special too.

David
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