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General Vintage Technology Discussions For general discussions about vintage radio and other vintage electronics etc. |
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23rd Nov 2020, 5:11 pm | #1 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Rugeley, Staffordshire, UK.
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How effective is an earth for reducing noise on AM?
Some forum member may recall how a couple of years ago I installed a long line AM aerial from next door's house to mine. It's as high as the chimney pots and impressively long. Anyway, although I kinda tried it out back then, it's only now that I've been trying to use it in earnest. Hmm, the darned grinding AM interference just seems to get everywhere. Yes, due to the nice big aerial the actual signal level is high, but the dreaded, grinding background noise is a major problem. I've tried switching stuff off and using a portable trannie to home in on the source but it just seems to be everywhere.
Just a thought and a question. I have a nice copper earth just outside the house that is connected to my mains board. I haven't tried it yet, but would/should connecting the earth connection part of the 'AE' socket on my receiver (a Tandberg Huldra 12) to the mains plug earth pin via a separate wire help with noise reduction? Yes, I will try it in due course, I just wondered what our experts thought. The mains is presently two wire.
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23rd Nov 2020, 5:22 pm | #2 |
Nonode
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Worcestershire, UK.
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Re: How effective is an earth for reducing noise on AM?
Hi Steve,
I'm by no means an expert but in your case my instinct would be to run a screened feeder lead to an aerial wire well away from the source of the interference; ie. houses and their wiring... say up the garden. You may find an aerial that responds to the magnetic aspect of the signal rather than the electric, such as a Welbrook Loop, beneficial too. Steve O
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23rd Nov 2020, 5:23 pm | #3 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oxfordshire, UK.
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Re: How effective is an earth for reducing noise on AM?
Not sure about earthing, but have you read any of the threads about how well magloop aerials work in these circumstances?
B overlapping posts on magloops - great mind think alike!
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23rd Nov 2020, 11:35 pm | #4 |
Octode
Join Date: May 2017
Location: St Austell, Cornwall, UK.
Posts: 1,018
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Re: How effective is an earth for reducing noise on AM?
When you say AM, are you talking about the Broadcast Bands, MW and SW ?
Power Line Transmitters which so many people are using these Days in the Home virtually wipe out the MW Band with noise and a large portions of the SW Band as well. Add to that, Broadband sent down Copper Telephone Cables are notorious for doing the Same if the Lines aren't balanced properly which is often the case. Unfortunately, if you live in a built up area, the chances are you won't be able to escape this Noise. Yes, I know, it's very frustrating. Ofcom seem to have no interest these Days in protecting the Radio Spectrum. How those PLT devices are legally allowed to be sold or used is a mystery. Ian |
24th Nov 2020, 10:07 am | #5 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Sep 2011
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Re: How effective is an earth for reducing noise on AM?
I think you've hit the nail on the head there Ian. For many of us the bottom line is, clean, interference free AM reception is a thing of the past.
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24th Nov 2020, 10:16 am | #6 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oxfordshire, UK.
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Re: How effective is an earth for reducing noise on AM?
Well, for some years now, the Wellbrook company has been demanding a painful £350 for its magloop aerials and many people have spent that money and have been delighted with the results. More tight-fisted individuals (like me) have built clones of the Wellbrook for next to nothing, and we have been even more delighted with the results.
I speak as someone who sees S8 noise levels on long wires, being surrounded by overhead power cables and overhead telephone lines. For broadcast stations, the best solution is to use an internet radio; I have three of those - couldn't live without them. B
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Saturn V had 6 million pounds of fuel. It would take thirty thousand strong men to lift it an inch. Last edited by Bazz4CQJ; 24th Nov 2020 at 10:23 am. |
24th Nov 2020, 10:36 am | #7 |
Heptode
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Southport, Merseyside, UK.
Posts: 646
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Re: How effective is an earth for reducing noise on AM?
I did a quick test about half an hour ago with my car radio. It is an Audi built in radio. AM / DAB / FM. No earth of course, a small DAB stub on the roof : I imagine the rear screen heater is used for AM/FM. I am in a built up area, car parked in the driveway. I have a number of SMPS, WiFi and smart meters operating. On AM I did a station update and it found a little over 20 stations and it displayed their frequencies. Selecting a random 6 or so, the stations were all clear with no obvious interference.
I realise the electronics will be pretty complex in a modern radio but thought it interesting. Also, of course a car radio eliminates interference from the domestic AC mains.
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24th Nov 2020, 10:54 am | #8 |
Octode
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Reading/Fakenham, UK.
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Re: How effective is an earth for reducing noise on AM?
Adding an earth may help, but most of the noise is probably being picked up on the wire antenna. A screened lead may also help, but unless you try some sort of matching(*) where the wire connects to the centre of the coax you are in effect just shunting much of the signal to earth via the capacitance between the coax centre and the outer braid. (This doesn't happen with matched systems like TV antennas and active antennas like the Wellbrook loop.)
There are a few active antenna designs out there much cheaper than the Welbrook loop to build yourself. Wasn't there an article in the Bulletin a year or two ago? The Mini Whip by pa0rdt has a good reputation. Only about £40 (£14 if you supply your own waterproof housing) although you can build one yourself. It might be successful if you can locate it in the least-worst area for noise. It's not directional like a loop or active dipole so you can't null out the worst interference. Unfortunately active antennas can be very expensive because it's essential that they are well designed so they don't overload and cause more problems than they solve. (*)On the other hand there are baluns which attempt to match the long wire to the coax. Again you can buy or make. https://m0ukd.com/homebrew/baluns-an...re-balun-unun/ https://www.iw5edi.com/ham-radio/317...ongwire-baluns https://www.google.co.uk/search?sxsr...dZCOZbizRhEEVM etc. All of these antennas use coax which is designed for a 50 ohm receiver input. Our vintage sets usually just have an antenna wire input, the impedance of which will vary greatly across the LW/MW/SW, but in practice won't matter too much. Last edited by Ian - G4JQT; 24th Nov 2020 at 11:12 am. |
24th Nov 2020, 10:56 am | #9 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Rugeley, Staffordshire, UK.
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Re: How effective is an earth for reducing noise on AM?
Actually I have some clip on ferrite slab beads that are for use on the mains input of sound reproducing equipment. I'll try one. That could be a source of interference.
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24th Nov 2020, 11:02 am | #10 | |
Moderator
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Re: How effective is an earth for reducing noise on AM?
Quote:
Connecting in a 50 Ohm antenna source is poor match on the power transfer front, but it also will excessively damp the radios input tuned circuit, widening it appreciably and letting more signals in and more interference power. That said, a resonated loop would normally give far better selectivity. David
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24th Nov 2020, 11:15 am | #11 |
Octode
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Stevenage, Herts. UK.
Posts: 1,518
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Re: How effective is an earth for reducing noise on AM?
Round here my level of QRM on my RA17 was vastly reduced by moving to a vertical longwire.
Since most house wiring, networks, burglar alarms have the majority of their wiring horizontal I figured a vertical mast might give me a better result. I bought a 10m telescopic mast and my RA17 has never been so happy!! |
24th Nov 2020, 12:23 pm | #12 |
Dekatron
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Re: How effective is an earth for reducing noise on AM?
What about if I replaced the inside the house portion of the aerial lead with a length of 75 ohm modern low loss coax? Where would I then connect the screen? - to the earth connection of the 'AE' socket on the solid state Tandberg receiver that I'm using and experiencing the problem with?
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24th Nov 2020, 12:40 pm | #13 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Cornwall, UK.
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Re: How effective is an earth for reducing noise on AM?
Antenna coupling etc, might be worth a read.
Mag. page 442 and page 463: https://worldradiohistory.com/UK/Wir...ld-1937-11.pdf Mag. page 218: https://worldradiohistory.com/UK/Wir...ld-1939-03.pdf Mag. page 389: https://worldradiohistory.com/UK/Wir...ld-1975-08.pdf Lawrence. |
24th Nov 2020, 12:59 pm | #14 | |
Octode
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Reading/Fakenham, UK.
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Re: How effective is an earth for reducing noise on AM?
Quote:
Have a look at the Google images link I posted for baluns/un-uns to consider fitting one where the antenna wire joins the coax. These will to some extent try to match the random wire to the coax and help reduce loss. The screen is then connected to the ground connection on your radio. |
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24th Nov 2020, 1:01 pm | #15 | |
Dekatron
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Re: How effective is an earth for reducing noise on AM?
Quote:
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24th Nov 2020, 1:02 pm | #16 | |
Dekatron
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Location: London, UK.
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Re: How effective is an earth for reducing noise on AM?
Quote:
A Hacker Herald in the window is my go-to for MW listening. It is selective and sensitive enough to pull in Radio 4 loud and clear. Obviously, this has a magnetic (ferrite rod) aerial and so it's all about the H-field, rather than the E-field. This indicates a possible direction for you and your listening dilemma, and points away from a long-wire. I see that post #10 by David covers off all the bases.
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24th Nov 2020, 2:27 pm | #17 | |
Dekatron
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Re: How effective is an earth for reducing noise on AM?
Quote:
Back in the day an antenna for broadcast reception that was sometimes used to combat interference was a vertical rod antenna coupled to the receiver via balanced transformers and a twin screened lead. Lawrence. |
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24th Nov 2020, 2:35 pm | #18 |
Dekatron
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Re: How effective is an earth for reducing noise on AM?
Thanks so far guys.
I've go a Tecsun passive loop aerial that I've just tried. Here's the results: 1) The general level of interference between stations and on stations is greatly reduced. 2) The actual signal level is reduced compared to the long wire. 3) Positioning of the loop seems quite critical from an interference POV, although rotating it does not seem to affect the signal level too much. 4) It is affected by magnetic devices like transformers and speakers - as you'd expect. There's a fair amount of 'hummy' interference. 5) I have to adjust the tuning knob on the Tecsun for each station on MW. Any tips?
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24th Nov 2020, 4:01 pm | #19 |
Dekatron
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Re: How effective is an earth for reducing noise on AM?
Well, if a passive loop seems interesting, you have to wonder what an active loop might be like, which brings us back to posts 2&3.
B
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24th Nov 2020, 4:36 pm | #20 |
Dekatron
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Re: How effective is an earth for reducing noise on AM?
Indeed, I think I'm going that way. They are expensive though.
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