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Old 23rd Oct 2021, 9:27 pm   #1
OldTechFan96
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Default Bentima Mantle Clock With 'Perivale' Movement Help

I'm having a bit of trouble with this old mantle clock which used to belong to my Great Grandad on my Mam's side of the family. I knew that a few clock enthusiasts were on this forum so I thought that I'd ask here.

The problem I'm having is that the clock does not spring into life when the mainspring is wound. It is winding as it should. The spring is in one piece. Bear in mind that I have only been winding the clock a handful of clicks at a time.

I've removed the movement from the cabinet and nothing looks to be stuck or binding. I have soaked the movement in degreaser and given the pivots a light oiling. This is probably not ideal but my first priority at the moment is to get the clock to run.

To better inspect the movement I will carefully let down each of the three mainsprings (this is a Westminister chime clock) and remove each barrel.

Does anybody have an idea about what could be wrong?
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Old 23rd Oct 2021, 11:26 pm   #2
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Smile Re: Bentima Mantle Clock With 'Perivale' Movement Help

Good evening,
I presume this is a pendulum type movement and not the floating balance type.

If so with the movement out of its case and the 3 springs wound up, (May need several turns to work) does the escapement wheel index forward if the pendulum is swung far enough so that the pallets leave the teeth of the escapement wheel.

If it doesn’t, then there is not enough power getting to it from the mainspring. As the gearing from the mainspring barrel to the escapement wheel is several thousand to one, there is very little torque available at the escapement wheel. Therefore cleanliness of the pivots, pinions and gear wheels is essential in getting enough power to keep the pendulum swinging.

If the escapement wheel does move ok then it could be that the pendulum assembly is not in beat properly, that is to say the “tick and tick” are not evenly spaced apart. There is usually some means to adjust the beat on the pendulum arm. Another way would be to jack up one side of the clock case say with 2p coins and see if this improves or worsens the beat.

Be very careful with mainsprings in barrels, there is quite a considerable amount of stored energy in the spring even when unwound and can fly out if not controlled carefully.

Hopefully this should give you a start on where your issues lie.

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Old 23rd Oct 2021, 11:49 pm   #3
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Default Re: Bentima Mantle Clock With 'Perivale' Movement Help

Some good detailed pictures of the movement would speak a thousand words!

What oil did you use? Ideally the proper grade of clock oil should be used but sewing machine oil will probably be OK for the average mantle clock. 3 in 1 should not be used although it wouldn't stop the clock from working....it just doesn't stay where you put it and spreads everywhere. There might be considerable wear at the pivot holes which can stop a clock. The only way to solve that is a complete strip down, drill the pivot holes out to a larger size and fit bushes of the correct size.
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Old 24th Oct 2021, 8:38 am   #4
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Default Re: Bentima Mantle Clock With 'Perivale' Movement Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by high_vacuum_house View Post
As the gearing from the mainspring barrel to the escapement wheel is several thousand to one, there is very little torque available at the escapement wheel. Therefore cleanliness of the pivots, pinions and gear wheels is essential in getting enough power to keep the pendulum swinging.
Yes, had this problem with my reproduction parlour clock a few years ago. Came back off holiday and it had stopped, refusing to start again. Removal of the movement revealed sticky oil at the pivots of the escapement wheel so the movement was cleaned and re-oiled with the correct grade of clock oil. It's been working for the last 5 years with no problems. It's 30 day movement is keeping very good time at the moment so no reason to think there is anything to be done just yet

It really doesn't take much to stop the escapement wheel from turning.
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Old 24th Oct 2021, 9:02 am   #5
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Default Re: Bentima Mantle Clock With 'Perivale' Movement Help

The only solution, I'm afraid, is a complete inspection of everything followed by any repairs needed then a strip down.
Proper clock oil on pivots and thicker oil in barrels.
How familiar are you with dealing with a three-train chiming clock?
Definitely not for the faint hearted!
Washing the movement with degreaser is a bit like having a shower with your clothes on - it just rearranges the muck

A quick fix might be to get the springs out of the barrels and clean and oil them, but that might be dangerous if you're not au fait with doing this.
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Old 24th Oct 2021, 11:14 am   #6
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Default Re: Bentima Mantle Clock With 'Perivale' Movement Help

Thanks for the advice so far.

To answer some questions:

This is a pendulum type clock.

Yes, 3 in One was used as it is what I had to hand. I don't want to come across as a horrible clock bodger so once that I establish the health of the movement I'll plan do to a proper job.

This is the first time I've worked on a clock. I did watch a lot of clockmaking videos last year. Of course, this is no replacement for practical experience. It does not look the best starter movement but I'll persevere. With the three barrels removed, things start to look less complex.

I agree with you Mike. The only way to do a good job would be to strip the whole thing down. I thought I recognised your name when researching this movement.

Does the clock need all three springs to be wound for the ticking to start?

Or for can I just fit the mainspring that controls time for testing purposes (without the two barrels that power the chimes)?
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Old 24th Oct 2021, 11:30 am   #7
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Smile Re: Bentima Mantle Clock With 'Perivale' Movement Help

Good morning,
It only requires the 1 spring to be wound for the escapement mechanism to work. The other 2 springs operates the Westminster chimes mechanism and separately the hours chiming mechanism.

Before starting to dismantle the mechanism, I would take plenty of pictures and pay particular attention to the positions of the parts of the Westminster chime barrel and locks. If you reassemble it wrong, it takes ages to get it back chiming in the correct sequence. (guess how I found that out !!)

For cleaning out the pivot holes in the brass plates, cocktail sticks work very well. Not only are they tapered so they fit in almost all holes, they are the right length to handle as well. You can also use them to clean out in between the teeth on the pinions which are hard to get at.

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Old 24th Oct 2021, 4:12 pm   #8
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Default Re: Bentima Mantle Clock With 'Perivale' Movement Help

Thanks for that high_vacuum_house, duly noted.

When inspecting the mainspring barrel I noticed what looks like excessive wear on the cover. Of the three barrels, two are identical. I swapped the non worn one in place of the worn one. Still no activity when this spring is wound. I expect that a strip down is needed.

At the moment I would like to focus on the time keeping side of things, rather that the strike and chimes.

In isolation, the wheel train looks straightforward.

The first step would be to remove the hammer assembly. It is retained by one nut and two pieces that look to be pressed into the rear plate. Does it just pull off?
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Old 25th Oct 2021, 8:33 am   #9
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Default Re: Bentima Mantle Clock With 'Perivale' Movement Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldTechFan96 View Post

When inspecting the mainspring barrel I noticed what looks like excessive wear on the cover. Of the three barrels, two are identical.
Looking at the front, left hand is for striking, right hand chiming. Strike and going barrels are the same and can be swapped. As only going barrel has excessive wear, it's possible that previous owner(s) didn't bother with chiming. It will only strike if it can chime.
Quote:

The first step would be to remove the hammer assembly. It is retained by one nut and two pieces that look to be pressed into the rear plate. Does it just pull off?
Yes.
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Old 25th Oct 2021, 6:23 pm   #10
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Default Re: Bentima Mantle Clock With 'Perivale' Movement Help

Last night I dissembled the clock as far as I was comfortable with, which must have been 85% of the way.

Every piece was thoroughly cleaned and is free of oil/grease. Each bushing was cleaned with toothpick. Every pivot and bushing has had a dot of oil applied by a needle.

Each train is very free and smooth running.

The centre barrel was installed and wound but the clock did not start. The same happened with the other identical barrel, no movement.

Is it time to investigate the barrels?
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Old 25th Oct 2021, 6:33 pm   #11
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Default Re: Bentima Mantle Clock With 'Perivale' Movement Help

Just had a fiddle with the movement again and it started ticking away!
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Old 25th Oct 2021, 6:41 pm   #12
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Default Re: Bentima Mantle Clock With 'Perivale' Movement Help

Good afternoon,
Before dismantling the spring barrels, try this to see if all is ok.
1) Unwind the going train spring completely
2) Remove the pendulum and pallet assembly completely so that the escapement wheel is free to rotate.
3) Carefully wind the going train spring a turn or 2. If all is well the escapement wheel should spin freely.

If it doesn’t, then something is stopping it. Try turning an intermediate wheel along the train to see if the mechanism is stiff.

If it does freely rotate there could be a problem with the setting of the pallets on the pendulum. The pallet arm bearing is on a slotted plate. Ensure that it is sitting correctly over the top of the escapement wheel as if it is too close to the wheel, the pallets won’t let the escapement wheel teeth escape and index round.

Hope this gives a few pointers to continue.

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Old 25th Oct 2021, 9:42 pm   #13
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Default Re: Bentima Mantle Clock With 'Perivale' Movement Help

The movement is still ticking away. I appreciate all of the help received so far.

Here are some photographs of the case. The lacquer finish was cut and polished.

Could anybody guess how old this clock is?
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Old 26th Oct 2021, 12:10 am   #14
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Default Re: Bentima Mantle Clock With 'Perivale' Movement Help

I've just been looking into how the pendulum assembly goes back together and I am wondering if something is missing in the third photograph? A small strip of metal?
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Old 26th Oct 2021, 6:09 am   #15
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Default Re: Bentima Mantle Clock With 'Perivale' Movement Help

Yes, there should be a flexible suspension to hang the pendulum on. It should look something like the attached pictures. They are sold in many different sizes and "springyness" grades so you may have to experiment.
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Old 26th Oct 2021, 9:08 am   #16
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Default Re: Bentima Mantle Clock With 'Perivale' Movement Help

Your clock will be post-WW2, probably early 1950's.

Looking at the back of the movement. everything looks complete - what exactly did you think was missing?

On post 11, does that mean that it's now running OK and keeping reasonable time?
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Old 26th Oct 2021, 9:44 am   #17
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Default Re: Bentima Mantle Clock With 'Perivale' Movement Help

Having looked at pictures of a Perivale movement, I think that the suspension spring is missing.

By working, I mean that the movement is ticking without the pendulum fitted.
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Old 26th Oct 2021, 10:20 am   #18
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Default Re: Bentima Mantle Clock With 'Perivale' Movement Help

Looking at the pic closely, i think you're right. It was the fact that the end of the crutch being at the top of the slot on the hanger and the chops (brass pieces at the end of the suspension spring) being still there that threw me.

Have a look at:
https://www.cousinsuk.com/category/p...ension-springs
No connection with sellers!
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Old 13th Nov 2021, 12:57 pm   #19
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Default Re: Bentima Mantle Clock With 'Perivale' Movement Help

A bit of an update:

I was able to make a suspension spring out of a coil of spring steel I had about. I cut an inch length and drilled two holes.

Surprisingly, it works as it should with the pendulum in place. The clock lost 45 minutes over 12 hours so some adjustment will be necessary.

The chime and strike does not want to work now that the movement is back in its case so I'll have to look at that.
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Old 13th Nov 2021, 9:25 pm   #20
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Default Re: Bentima Mantle Clock With 'Perivale' Movement Help

The intermittent strike and chime has been tracked down to an excessively worn bushing in the chime train.
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