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Old 17th Nov 2012, 12:46 pm   #41
brenellic2000
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Default Re: Killing woodworm

That method of steeping poles has long been used - over 200 years - but it requires the timber to have a high moisture content to allow the salts to be absorbed by osmosis - BUT it does not diffuse well across the cells - only upwards along the sap carrying veins! Fact!!

Hence the need to use hot and cold diffusion, as in hop poles. The preservative is heated; the timber inserted; the heat drives air out of the cells, emptying them. As the timber and preservative cools it is drawn into the evacuated cells... but no further. It is 10 times better than painting it on - BUT AGAIN it does not penetrate far acoss the outer exposed cells.

Only the Bethell process of high vacuum evacuation followed by a high pressure, forcing the preservative into the evacuated cells, gets anywhere near sufficient penetration to protect timber in ground contact/wet environments, where it rots, whether using organic solvent or waterborne CCA salts. Organic solvents are designed to evaporate - they leave no residual insecticide or fungicide unless pre-loaded as a carrier/vehicle.

Remember, a lick of preservative is a complete waste of money! If you buy vacuum treated timber ALWAYS retreat any new cuts or joints. And don't believe what the salesman tells you!

Psssst! Anyone want to buy a Pratchitt 12' full cell Bethell treatment plant....?

Barry
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Old 17th Nov 2012, 2:05 pm   #42
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Default Re: Killing woodworm

Let me just clarify something!

Well seasoned, joinery grade timber for furniture, radio cabinets etc which will spend their life in a warm, dry, heated house need no pre-treatment as the room will not sustain insect/woodworm attack.

Stick said radio cabinet in a damp garden shed/garage for 5 years and it will adjust to a moisture content which will support insect attack. Take said 'antique' radio cabinet back into your home and the woodworm will appear ... sometime. Once the moisture content has settled back to that of the warm dry room, you will no longer get new insect attacks. OK?
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Old 17th Nov 2012, 2:20 pm   #43
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Default Re: Killing woodworm

So why did my 60 year old house have a woodworm infestation, around 15 years ago.

I treat any signs of woodworm, in a radio, with propriety wood worm killer and leave them in bagged, in the garage, for several months before I bring them anywhere near my house

David
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Old 17th Nov 2012, 4:19 pm   #44
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We live in a temperate climate where houses are frequently very humid - and that's getting worse as we blindly follow ill-advised government advice to hermetically seal our houses. People block up chimneys and air bricks and fill in cellar coal chutes to stop draughts, then wonder why their wallpaper peels and their houses smell of damp (that's what some previous owner of this Victorian place did). Then, people fill their cavity walls with insulation, which again makes the humidity problem worse, leading to condensation, along with all the health hazards that brings.

As well as temperature, I monitor humidity within the house (and down in the cellar), and control it by opening windows. The heating runs for 16 hours a day, very gentle maintaining 20C while keeping the house dry (which is actually cheaper to run than the usual twice a day roasting that most people in the UK opt for). Pretty simple - but sadly many people don't understand the basics of humidity and condensation.

An outbreak of woodworm is a sure sign of a house that is damp. The "infestation" - an emotive word favoured by the timber treatment industry - will stop when the house is dry and the life-cycle is complete. Any chemicals that might have been applied 15 years ago will have had almost no effect.

I really don't think that putting a radio in a cold damp garage is a good idea - garages tend to be cold and humid, and if your garage uses timber in the construction, that wood might well be fairly appealing to the emerging beetles, assuming they've been able to find a mate in the short time they have as adult beetles. That said, they only eat sapwood, and most constructional timber is substantially heartwood.

The best place for an old radio is in the house, near to a radiator. By all means put it in a bag if you think that'll make any difference, but honestly, the chances of emerging beetles from an old radio being able to mate and find sufficiently wet wood to lay their eggs in are highly remote.

As I said in my first post, I don't think the chemicals are safe. They might be "OK" in isolation, but what isn't known is how they might react with traces of the previous chemicals that were used. Given that most old UK houses get a fresh dousing every time they change hands (normally because a surveyor spots evidence of a 100 year old "infestation"), it's a real worry - especially given the ongoing sealing up I mentioned in the first paragraph. Indeed, if the chemicals have always been safe, why do they keep changing? Permethrin is a neurotoxin, and is apparently quite harmful to cats - that alone should surely stop us using it, given how cats and old radios seem to go together...

Mark
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Old 17th Nov 2012, 4:45 pm   #45
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Default Re: Killing woodworm

I couldn't agree more Mark: well said. My reference to putting an old radio in a damp garage was indicative of where 'most old radios' on e-Bay have lived for the last 5 years!

We should never forget that ever more new insects (and fungi) are being 'imported' into the UK through imported goods in containers or our own clothing/cars which have passed through customs without being throughly checked - note today's 4-year old ash and oak tree die-back problem. There was a time when imported logs were banned if they had any bark on them which carried hidden bugs. NZ still bans bark.

Insects do become immune to chemicals! As Mark says, Permethrin is a nerve agent with has a potency of less than two years and must be reapplied regularly. A permethrin dust will be picked up by the beetle, but not if sprayed as a liquid... once the carrier has evaporated.

Regardless of what steps we take it is largely our own complaceny and gulibility which allows these attacks... and they will attack even protected timber The little b*****s.

TTFN
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Old 17th Nov 2012, 4:59 pm   #46
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Originally Posted by brenellic2000 View Post
I couldn't agree more Mark: well said. My reference to putting an old radio in a damp garage was indicative of where 'most old radios' on e-Bay have lived for the last 5 years!
Thanks

And yes, just for avoidance of confusion, my comment about the garage was in reply to Dave, who stores his out there before bringing them in. You're quite right; a lot of second-hand radios have just been "found" in outbuildings or lofts, so might well be carrying the little darlings

All of the ground floor timbers in this building have had serious woodworm attack - I've replaced those in the front room, and plan to replace the rear room joists soon. This room is above the cellar, so I see these timbers daily. Some of them are really, really bad. But, the floor is still there and is showing no sign of getting worse - the outer sapwood has been eaten but the joists still have plenty of strength. I haven't seen an adult beetle emerging since about 6 years ago, shortly after I sorted out the ventilation down there.

The house was last treated for woodworm in 1998 or thereabouts - shows how effective it was!

We were told to do the same, but didn't - not least because we were about to have our first child! As it wasn't made a condition of our mortgage, we were under no obligation, but unfortunately many lenders now are very quick to put conditions on, based on the survey. It's a racket!

Second to controlling humidity, I think the next best defence against woodworm is spiders! I've never killed a spider, and will happily live with them, providing they're not too big and scary
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Old 17th Nov 2012, 9:25 pm   #47
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Default Re: Killing woodworm

As I said earlier I am also against the use of chemicals. I have used both Rentokil and Cuprinol treatment, neither have worked.

Sitting the cabinet in a nice warm room however did! This was my Bush TV63 which had been stored in damp conditions for many years.

As Mark says it is however very easy for houses to get damp. My student house is a Victorian terrace which has had it's chimneys blocked up and some of the sash windows painted shut, as such the house is now poorly ventilated (many cheaper Victorian terraces were never well ventilated to start with) and the windows run with condensation in the morning after another blast from the boiler (sadly we have no 'proper' thermostat so keeping the house at a constant temperature is not possible). Fortunately I don't keep my radios there so no chance of woodworm

Prevention is better than cure and the best prevention is proper storage conditions.
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Old 17th Nov 2012, 10:29 pm   #48
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Default Re: Killing woodworm

Keeping some wooden stuff at the back of the shed , it got eaten by mice. Back to insects isnt there a problem with termites in houses in part of Cornwall/North Devon and should any special measures therefore be taken in respect of wooden furniture that has been in that area moved out to other parts of britain , or is say the scottish climate too cold for termites?
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Old 18th Nov 2012, 9:17 am   #49
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Default Re: Killing woodworm

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhennessy View Post
a lot of second-hand radios have just been "found" in outbuildings or lofts, so might well be carrying the little darlings
Don't I know it!
It's now become standard practice to flood wooden sets with woodworm killer before doing anything else with them.
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Old 18th Nov 2012, 11:39 am   #50
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I picked up a cheap Hacker Mayflower for the chassis a while back. It had terrible worm damage, and the seller had flooded it prior to sale (no-doubt trying to be helpful). The case didn't make it into the house - not because of the fear of a worm attack, but because of the chemicals - it absolutely stank!
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Old 18th Nov 2012, 11:48 am   #51
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Few timbers are resistant to termite attack if it is not a native specie and only a few in the antipodies are. Turpentine is part-effective. This reinforces the folly of governments relaxing import restrictions - something our gromless, witless politicians fail to comprehend... until its too late.

No matter what treatment you use, some attack can always be expected to succeed. Spiders are always a sign of a healthy house (except big hairy tarantulas!). I'd also invite in a family of pigmy or common shrew; they love small insects and are absolutely harmless (but keep food covered)... and very entertaining.

Mark - have you had those joists' structural integrity tested? The blighters can eat away the entire centre and leave only the outer 'shell'.

TTFN
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Old 18th Nov 2012, 12:52 pm   #52
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Originally Posted by brenellic2000 View Post
Mark - have you had those joists' structural integrity tested? The blighters can eat away the entire centre and leave only the outer 'shell'.
No, not formally. I know that they've been this way for decades, and seem fine when we have occasional large gatherings in the room. But as I'm planning to change them, I'm not too worried at this point.

It will be interesting to inspect them properly when they have been removed. I'm wondering if I can rip them down to make useful timbers from the remains. Currently they are 2 by 7, or 3 by 7, and if I can make some usable 2 by 4s from them, that would be good. Of course, the rusty nails that stick in them might make cutting them down impossible. There are nails on the underside too, because the cellar originally had a lathe and plaster ceiling.

If the worst comes to the worst, I have a couple of acro-props
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Old 18th Nov 2012, 1:48 pm   #53
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Quote:
lathe and plaster ceiling
Must be big nails to hold up a lathe! If you use a carbide saw the odd nail won't matter.
 
Old 18th Nov 2012, 4:12 pm   #54
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Oops! Yes, lath and plaster. Wonderful stuff

The joists are softwood, roughly sawn, but being late Victorian, it's really good stuff. Looking at them now, they're not too bad - it's only really the ends that have got it (obviously damp from being in contact with the walls), and it's mostly the ones near the coal chute and chimney breast.

FWIW, I do like to re-use Victorian timber where possible. Well-seasoned, slowly grown, lovely smell when worked. They don't make it like they used to
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Old 19th Nov 2012, 11:42 am   #55
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Default Re: Killing woodworm

I would tend to favour paraffin. I have used it, and found no discernable damage to the timber, no smell once it has had time to dry out, and no obvious worm activity in a badly infested case. Time will tell of course. I would take great care with insecticides. As supplied one needs to wear gloves and wash hands. Every ten years or so we are told that the last generation of products is a serious health risk - do we want to leave a legacy of toxic cabinets? Insecticide manufacturers tend to be optimistic. And how about environmental considerations in their production and general use?

Insects are unbelievably resilient. Some will survive in high vacuum, have been seen crawling about in electron microscopes, and I can believe can survive radiation. I'd go for a cheap and more natural method. I wonder if essential (plant) oils, such as tea tree, might be effective?
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Old 19th Nov 2012, 12:16 pm   #56
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Default Re: Killing woodworm

Canabis oil works on quite a range of insects but not all of them.
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Old 19th Nov 2012, 1:49 pm   #57
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Very interesting thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhennessy View Post
We live in a temperate climate where houses are frequently very humid - and that's getting worse as we blindly follow ill-advised government advice to hermetically seal our houses. People block up chimneys and air bricks and fill in cellar coal chutes to stop draughts, then wonder why their wallpaper peels and their houses smell of damp (that's what some previous owner of this Victorian place did)....

As well as temperature, I monitor humidity within the house (and down in the cellar), and control it by opening windows. The heating runs for 16 hours a day, very gentle maintaining 20C while keeping the house dry (which is actually cheaper to run than the usual twice a day roasting that most people in the UK opt for). Pretty simple - but sadly many people don't understand the basics of humidity and condensation.
How true, Mark. Well said from me too.

I've fitted automatic closers to the bathroom and kitchen doors, and insist that the windows in these rooms are left ajar after baths/showers and during cooking. We also dry clothes outside or in the tumble dryer, never on clothes horses or radiators indoors. We have single-glazed Crittall steel windows which act as very effective dehumidifiers: any excessive moisture condenses on the glass and can be squeegeed off and sponged up into a bucket a few seconds. Neighbours with hermetically-sealed double glazing have condensation on the poorly insulated walls instead, with the nasty smell, peeling paper and black mould that results.

Installing a programmable 'stat which allows you to set different temperatures for different times of the day is a vast improvement over a simple timer, although as you say, a lot of people are firmly wedded to a traditional "twice a day" heating arrangement.

A dehumidifier in the garage is a very cost-effective way of making it more radio-friendly, if the house is full and needs must.

Lofts are a mixed bag. Some are hideous - full of airbourne grime and condensation which wrecks radios in a few months. Others I've found to be almost as good for storing radios as the main body of the house.

I've found the cheap LCD humidity meters (hygrometers) available for under a fiver on eBay etc. very handy for monitoring storage areas. Many also display temperature simultaneously which is a boon.

Nick.

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Old 19th Nov 2012, 3:14 pm   #58
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Default Re: Killing woodworm

I have discovered that over half of the damp I have had to sort out has been where the damp proof membrane in the wall had been plastered over.
After I had sorted most of it out the damp could be seen retreating day by day.

Last edited by Refugee; 19th Nov 2012 at 3:15 pm. Reason: one capital letter
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Old 21st Jan 2013, 3:04 pm   #59
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Default Re: Killing woodworm

Hi. My apologies for resurrecting an old thread but I wanted to relate some experiences. Although I live in Puerto Rico where we have plenty of our own bugs I have brought in several European sets and that's where my trouble started.

First was a B&O Master 38 with bad infection. It went immediately to a neighbour's freezer and stayed for months. Afterwards I restored it only to find the damage had again started. Back to the freezer for another 6 months. When I re-did the cabinet I puttied up all of the holes I could find based on the advice from one person that the critters will RE-ENTER the exit holes. Don't know if that's true or if the double-freezing actually did the trick but the radio is ok now.

A couple others have since suffered from "your" worms One being my once beautiful Barker 88. I have a WTB ad here for that one. It got too far gone before I noticed it and now its too late for an easy repair. On that one there was very little external evidence other than a few crumbs but the worms have managed to successfully hollow out the plywood case. It still appears 'good' from a short distance but you can poke your finger clean through the case!

One product we have here that seems to be effective against our local wood bugs is Flea & Tick Powder used for dogs. My Barker is now sitting in a sealed bag heavily doused with the stuff !

Adios,
Bill
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Old 25th Jan 2013, 10:35 am   #60
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Default Re: Killing woodworm

Some have suggested paraffin and white spirit to treat woodwork with, and several have said that the smell from these chemicals are intolerable.

How about using lamp oil to treat wood, it is clear, refined and has little odour to it and should still be legal to purchase?

Just a thought, have not tried it.
Tony
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