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Old 16th Mar 2010, 3:31 pm   #1
Vicboduk
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Default Are all woodworm this fussy?

My colleague and I are currently restoring a Murphy A212i (Irish version with a Mazda 1M1 tuning indicator) I’m tackling the electronics, he’s doing the woodwork.
I think I got the better side of the deal! It seems that Irish woodworm don’t like the taste of varnish. The first picture shows just 4 worm holes. Picture 2 shows what was underneath the varnish after sanding back!!!

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Old 16th Mar 2010, 3:37 pm   #2
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

This isn't unusual. Woodworm seem to love plywood and often form complex mazes like this. They are much less keen on the surface veneer, or perhaps the glue used to stick it on.

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Old 16th Mar 2010, 3:45 pm   #3
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

I suppose creosote is out of the question?



Woodworm absolutely hates teak wood.

I was going to say a Philips G8 was teak but thinking about it, it was probably plywood with a teak veneer

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Old 16th Mar 2010, 4:47 pm   #4
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

Creosote is deadly stuff,somewhat carcegenic and i believe all but banned but its great on sheds!

David

PS Stick to 5star wormkiller and wetrot,cant think of make
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Old 16th Mar 2010, 5:49 pm   #5
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

The EU killed 100% natural creosote and coal-tar soap because it worked and they didn't know why! That hydrocarbons are carcinogenic is not relevant here (else they would ban cigarettes and tax something else!) as creosote is now licensed to certain industrial users because it can't be beaten and modern safe chemicals have proven to be useless in long term, adverse conditions. Creosote it is perfectly safe in the right hands (preferably, gloved)!

Many new woodworm/insecticides and fungicides using man-made chemicals (permetherin, linthane etc) have now been banned... because they are known to be and are proven toxic to insects... and man - progress eh!

Insects love old plywood because of the animal fat based glue used in their laminations (and ideal to feed hungry larvae as a dessert to sugary sap!). Plywood glues from the 1960s on are largely synthetic resins. The best plywood is marine plywood because the timber has natural insecticidal and fungicidal properties - and the resin glue is waterproof.

But for furniture restoration, the quality of commercial veneered ply is now very poor (only 0.5mm thick veneer!); you are better of with aircraft grade Russian Birch ply and sticking on a suitable veneer (with a stabilising backing veener)... but me thinks B&Q won't stock it...! Use a sympathetic trade supplier!

If you are concerned about later woodworm or furniture beetle attack, use a volatile 'spirit' wormkiller before applying the veneer - don't use a 'safe' water based one. Cuprinol 5* is the best - but you'll probably have to get it from a trade supplier - thanks to the EU!

Barry
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Old 16th Mar 2010, 5:53 pm   #6
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HamishBoxer View Post
5star wormkiller and wetrot,cant think of make
Mine says "Cuprinol" on the can.

Incidentally, talking about fussy woodworms reminds me of a softback book I found where the pages had been riddled with wormholes, but the covers had been left untouched - presumably they found the glossy printing gave the covers a nasty taste!
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Old 16th Mar 2010, 5:59 pm   #7
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

Hello,
The woodworm holes you see are the exit holes used when the worm has pupated into a beetle and leaves the wood. Having hatched from the egg the woodworm will have been eating a tunnel through the wood for a year or more before exiting the wood, so the holes you see are just the tip of the iceberg. In the wild, if woodworm came to the surface they would soon have been eaten by birds etc, so they stay below the surface until they are ready to fly off.
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Old 16th Mar 2010, 6:02 pm   #8
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

... same applies to books - animal fat glues! Silver fish love books. Suggest you keep a Heron in your library and a lesser spotted woodpecker in your hi-fi!

Barry
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Old 16th Mar 2010, 6:02 pm   #9
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

Yes, entirely agree about Cuprinol 5 star. I've used gallons of the stuff for more years than I care to remember, but I haven't attempted to purchase any recently...
Creosote is certainly effective but refinishing wood soaked in the stuff is nigh on impossible because it stays active for a long time and bleeds out of the grain, destroying the adhesion of paint and varnish layers as it does so. I've seen this on wooden hulled boats - and their inadvisable softwood-built cabins.
Woodworm infestation is often 'odd' in what is selected and what is left alone, apart from the harder veneer and varnish, as Paul rightly says. I've seen sets with almost all one panel destroyed yet the remained barely touched. The critters also love unvarnished ply, hence the powedered remains of loudspeaker baffle boards in some older receivers.
-Tony
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Old 16th Mar 2010, 6:15 pm   #10
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

re varnishes: most post-war varnishes are of 'melamine' (as in Formica) a phenolic resin (an insecticide/fungicide) bringing us back full circle to hydrocarbons again - formaldahyde is also banned!

... which makes me chuckle as furniture polish tins say "it nourishes the wood" - how so it if it is melamine lacquered?!

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Old 16th Mar 2010, 6:57 pm   #11
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

Looks like you sanded away the veneer completely there!
Sanding my 18th cent elm floorboards 19 years ago I discovered the same problem. Unfortunately the nice surface became rough and horrid. Woodworm only come through the surface when its time to fly ,otherwise they stay inside with the munchies. Flight holes often are at the back or bottom of furniture , but not always ,I have seen a telly with the top totally eaten!Maybe they were australian woodworm
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Old 16th Mar 2010, 7:04 pm   #12
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

A good few years ago I cleared around 8 vintage television receivers from a warm, dry insulated loft. They had been untouched since around 1962. All but one were in perfect condition with unblemished cabinets. I made a grab at a HMV model 1811 12" console in an attempt to pull it towards me. The cabinet completely collapsed to dust. The CRT fell out [It remained intact] and the chassis collapsed into the bottom of the cabinet.
I have experienced this with HMV receivers in the past and put it down as Barry suggests to the use of animal glue. I believe E.M.I. made their own plywood at Hayes. I read somewhere that the timber was floated down the Grand Union Canal. The woodworm had only attacked this receiver and there were no signs of infestation in the loft timbers or the other sets. Regards, John.
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Old 16th Mar 2010, 7:33 pm   #13
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

Hi.
The HMV 1851 I restored last year (from Fernseh) had severe woodworm damage, David had rebuilt the base of the cabinet and made a new plinth for the radio, it was all put together and looked reasonable. I spent a lot of time with very expensive woodworn killer, and filled the holes with PVA to stiffen up the wood. Eventually I ran out of room and passed the set onto Retroaudio.
I was visiting him at the weekend and was horrified that the set is now just about to collapse, so how can you be sure the little blighters are dead?
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Old 16th Mar 2010, 7:41 pm   #14
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

Nasty one Trevor. I have never had a problem using RENTOKIL woodworm treatment liquid. I paint it over the cabinet and soak the interior. Use a syringe for refilling ink cartridges to inject into each hole separately. Takes a little while but never had a recall. J.
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Old 16th Mar 2010, 8:55 pm   #15
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

Thank You,thats the one Cuprinol!

David
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Old 16th Mar 2010, 10:12 pm   #16
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

This is worth a read: Life Cycle:- ( 4 Stages - EGG - LARVA - PUPA - ADULT )

(a) After mating, the woodworm beetle lays approx. 30 to 60 eggs, injecting them into the open pores of the timber, often open grain sawed ends. Eggs are never laid onto sealed or varnished surfaces. It is common for the beetle to lay the eggs down the old "Flight holes" and tunnels, often well below the surface. The Eggs are laid singly or in rows of two, three or four. The Egg has a life of 14 to 28 days after laying.

(b) The Larvae live eating away within the wood for approx. 3 to 4 years. Symbiotic yeasts enable the larvae to convert cellulose to protein in their gut, and this process is assisted by a secretion of enzyme which breaks down the plant cell walls to simpler sugars. Factors which contribute to the rate of Larval development are i) Temperature: (ii) Humidity: (iii) Nutritional value of timber.

(c) At the end of the 3 to 4 year feeding cycle the Larvae pupate into an Adult beetle in chambers just below the surface.The Pupa has a life of 21 to 60 days. Pupation generally ends in Mid Summer or Easter, with the Adult beetles emerging to the surface and exiting the wood through the "Flight-Holes". The exiting urge is of such magnitude that they have been known to gnaw through paints, varnishes, plasters, sheet lead and Formica to the surface from the wood.

(d) The efficiency of the search for a female beetle by the male beetle is increased by the release of a sex pheromone from the female body, which can be tracked by the male beetle.The female will mate 3 or more times during the course of the egg laying period.

(e) The Adult beetle lives for about a 4 week period, during which time it lays its eggs. Both mating and egg laying can take place within the flight-hole itself. Females shelter in flight holes periodically after emergence and hence there are many opportunities for re-infesting attacked wood.

The point about humidity is worth bearing in mind by those like me whose workshops are wooden sheds...
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Old 16th Mar 2010, 10:27 pm   #17
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

There are many types too , big and small , that like different situations.Remember they originated living in rotting timber etc in woodland .
I had an HMV radio gram cabinet that had been buried in hay in a barn , had large woodworm holes ,and when i treated it huge beetles and grubs wriggled out in horror! I had this in my bedroom , then a school friend had it in his bedroom , some years later I had it back stored in my old bedroom at Parents house . about 10 years ago I brought it here ,and unfortunately due to space probs i stripped it of good bits and broke it up. I burnt the rest and as it burnt huge Beetles wriggled out
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Old 16th Mar 2010, 10:39 pm   #18
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

Ah, poor beatles
I quite like big beatles - cockchafers, death watch, stag etc. They only pose a problem when they're in the 'wrong' place.
Alan
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Old 16th Mar 2010, 10:44 pm   #19
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

Yes I agree . Without going too OT I was working in an old house removing plaster in a small area to re plaster .The elm lintel of a window was crumbling at one end and i also had to remove some bricks to replace them for some reason .In a void I found two HUGE beetles ,at least an inch long.I didnt know what to do with them so i dropped them out of the window .
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Old 16th Mar 2010, 11:12 pm   #20
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Default Re: Are all woodworm this fussy?

Well done
To return to the subject, I got a Pye PE41 from DIN Plug Pete last year, kindly transported by GJ to the NVCF. DPP said it had some wormholes, and I've just realised it's still in the shed in its box .
I'd better look at it PDQ. Thanks for reminding me.
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