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Old 1st Jun 2018, 6:49 pm   #101
ColinTheAmpMan1
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Ah, thanks Graham. I should have read more carefully.
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 7:34 pm   #102
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Simpson View Post
... Another cautionary note, to those who wheel & deal for money - Mr Taxman, Mr NI man & Mr DSS man, Mr HSE man, etc., could all potentially use cyber technology to easily read this thread & many others ...
Not quite sure what your point is here David.

Mr HSE man is ridiculously overworked and very unlikely to be trawling the internet in case he should come across someone whose working practices might be questionable.

The other three are interested in fraudsters. Are you suggesting that that describes any of the thread participants (I'm sure you aren't) ?

It could, I suppose, be the case that in the event of legal proceedings one side or the other's lawyers might root around for online evidence with which to expose their opponent's incompetence/negligence. I can't speak for others but I certainly would never post anything online that I wouldn't be happy to defend if called upon .

Cheers,

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Old 1st Jun 2018, 8:49 pm   #103
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

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I can't speak for others but I certainly would never post anything online that I wouldn't be happy to defend if called upon
Herein lies a major danger; what you think you are saying, and what the police or a barrister can re-mould your words in to meaning, could be two very different things. Hence the extensive use of the phrase "No Comment" in legal situations. Friends who have been in traffic accidents assure me that it is the only way to go.

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Old 1st Jun 2018, 9:18 pm   #104
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Interesting, but please return to the topic in question.
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Old 2nd Jun 2018, 10:48 am   #105
David Simpson
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

GJ, the fourth line of your last post is what I meant. Certainly not a slur on Forum folk's practices.
G6Tanuki hits the nail on the head regarding "myther" folk who baulk at spending a mere fiver on new flex and a plug. Every aspect of fitting 3 core modern flex & of professional charging for work has been thoroughly delved into these last few days. Opinions from folk far higher up the professional tree than myself have passed on words of wisdom. Perhaps its time Mither puts it all to bed. Mither = Scots Doric - stands for Mother. Then we can all sleep soundly. Certainly I do - knowing that the restored DAC10 I had given to a close chum, several years ago, was wired with a modern but vintage looking 3 core flex & 3pin plug(fused at I amp)(Note I had given him the strict caveat that it was really just a display item, despite it being wired safely, and worked fine on all bands & button selections when connected to an aerial). Note the word "Given" - I would never consider flogging an AC/DC set, internet or otherwise. But that, of course Moderators, is probably another separate thread topic, (which I have no intention of raising - I'll leave that to some Black Country Mythers). As hopefully this thread has run its course.

Regards, David
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Old 3rd Jun 2018, 9:45 am   #106
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

I'll have a thumb through my In-Service & Inspection guidelines booklet later today.

I know it has sections on Class I, Class II, SELV and, would you believe, Class X.

Class X (from memory) covers the likes of AC/DC sets.

I do have a vague memory (yes, I really do) it mentions non-safety mains plugs but not so sure about the mains cable colour coding.

Should I find anything of relevance, I shall upload accordingly.

Mark
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Old 3rd Jun 2018, 10:43 am   #107
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Told you I have a vague memory, it's Class 0 & Class 01, not Class X.

Silly me, Class X is to do with capacitors across the mains!

Bear with, still reading, though really should be cutting the grass.

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Old 3rd Jun 2018, 10:49 am   #108
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

I don't think we'll ever know the legal implications of replacing a mains lead unless a case comes to court.

Let's hope that never happens, but if it does at least we'll know the answer.
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Old 3rd Jun 2018, 12:31 pm   #109
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

It's beginning to look like there aren't any specific ones, beyond competency, workmanship, and the duty of care that all citizens are expected to uphold in all fields of endeavour. To quote Frank Murphy's Daughter, "a First Class Job"
https://www.amazon.com/First-Class-J.../dp/0951120808
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Old 3rd Jun 2018, 1:40 pm   #110
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Quote:
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... there aren't any specific ones, beyond competency, workmanship, and the duty of care that all citizens are expected to uphold in all fields of endeavour ...
Yes, or at least all fields of endeavour where you take someone else's money in return for a service.

Of course there are some specifically regulated examples - Gas Safe, for instance, or the Part P rules. But as far as I know there is nothing legal which specifically dictates the technical details of the repair of electrical/electronic equipment. When it comes to selling equipment it can be a different matter.

Cheers,

GJ
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Old 3rd Jun 2018, 9:56 pm   #111
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Owing to copyright, I'm not allowed to upload extracts from the in-service inspection booklet.

I can tell you, it's illegal to sell an item with a non-safety (uninsulated Live & Neutral pins) mains plug & has been illegal since 1975 apparently.

There's a lot of blurb about health & safety at work, mentions employers, employees & the self employed.

Crux of it is, the duty of care is with the inspector. If you deem it safe & the customer gets a belt, injured or killed, it's down to the person who carried out the inspection, be it visual or, if you have fancy equipment at your disposal.

Providing the mains lead is undamaged, free from splits, cracks, insulating tape, connecting block & anything else where the mains lead is not one continuous conductor, from the plug to the equipment, is deemed fit for purpose, of the correct rating & type for the equipment & you deem it safe, that appears to be all required.

The mains plug, providing it is wired correctly, fused according to the type of appliance, is undamaged, no signs of burns, has the outer insulator secured by the cord grip, that appears to be all that's required.

I'm sure we all carry out an informal risk assessment, even when a friend invites you over to have a look & listen to their new toy, who wouldn't give it the once over, for your sake & your friend, politely pointing out any concerns.

So there we are, duty of care, it's in your hands.

Repairs to the internals of equipment was beyond the scope of the booklet, but as previously mentioned, competency, workmanship with a dash of experience being the watchwords.

The list above is not exhaustive, I may have inadvertently missed some finer detail. An Internet search for 'in-service inspection & testing of electrical equipment' may reveal a free (but out of date) PDF of the same

Mark
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Old 4th Jun 2018, 10:30 am   #112
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Great info Mark.
What it all boils down to, regarding this thread in particular, and all work relating to the supply industry & those involved in domestic & industrial installation/repair/inspection in general - are two ultimate indisputable scientific factors. These factors affect design engineers at the top of the professional ladder, down to the chap deciding weather to fit a modern flex & plug on a vintage radio item. Everything we do is designed to eliminate the deadly affect of these two scientific factors.
Here we go - what are the two factors ? Lets see, in a friendly manner, who can say what these factors are ? I'm not trying to deviate from the thread, Moderators. Just a wee interesting query that hopefully will only run for a day or so, then I'll answer.

Regards, David
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Old 4th Jun 2018, 11:44 am   #113
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Quote:
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... Everything we do is designed to eliminate the deadly affect of these two scientific factors ...
I'm not going to speculate about your factors David, but I will raise a query about this bit.

In real life safety is very important (I speak as someone who was professionally responsible for a lot of it in a pretty challenging science rersearch environment). But it's not 'everything'. If it was then the roads would certainly look different. In a genuine 'safety is everything' world the authorities would ban any car that wasn't EuroNCAP 5-star rated (there are plenty of 5-star ones to choose from). But they don't, because they recognise that other things matter too.

Originality matters to a lot of people, and it's possible to make an assessment of risk which says that the chances of an accident caused by a 13A plug with unshielded live and neutral pins, or by confusion over flex wiring colours, in vintage wireless and audio gear is vanishingly small.

If we were talking about something else - wall warts for example, which must be out there in their tens (hundreds ? thousands even ?) of millions then getting the accident rate down from 1 in 10,000,000 to 1 in 20,000,000 per year would save real lives. That's worth doing. But we're not talking about wall warts. We're talking about kit which is present in quantities of a few thousands, or perhaps tens of thousands, of regularly used units. I suspect that the fatality rate caused by older style plugs and flexes on these items is well below 'deaths caused by lightning' and down there with 'people being accidentally shot by off-duty FBI agents dancing negligently'. Risks that small do need to be kept in perspective.

Cheers,

GJ
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Old 4th Jun 2018, 2:19 pm   #114
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Before moulded plugs, most items were supplied with bare wires, and it was up to responsible dealers to fit an appropriate plug, others left it to the customer to do the best they could, but may have supplied a loose plug. This meant that the plug wasn't part of the original equipment, although red/black cable was of course.
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Old 4th Jun 2018, 3:33 pm   #115
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

"Originality" is an interesting concept . When I grew up it was perfectly normal for the radio to be plugged into the light fitting. A convenient switch fitting was also available so that you could put the radio on during the day without the light. Not to mention the numerous types of household outlet designs available.
So bare wires supply was the only practical option for a manufacturer at that time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_pow...types#2_ampere

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_pow...gs_and_sockets
Pete

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Old 4th Jun 2018, 4:06 pm   #116
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Just bear with me GJ, for a day or so. The reason for the wee query is a friendly attempt to clarify the reasons why Government/Industry technocrats write all these mandatory regulations (going back decades), which some folk find confusing & sometimes intrusive. Whether it be 30 odd million homes in the UK, half a million factories, or just a thousand or two vintage mains radios. The two Scientific Factors are nothing new and are easy for all to comprehend. They are hammered into every trainee/apprentice from week one in some form or another. Graphic films are often shown in technical colleges, training depts., etc. There - I've started to give clues.

Regards, David
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Old 4th Jun 2018, 4:06 pm   #117
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Quote:
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"Originality" is an interesting concept ...
Indeed. I find myself drifting towards the idea of 'more' and 'less' original.

I guess that what the OP meant when he said original was the red/black/green cored flex and/or the 13A plug with the unsheathed pins with which the piece of equipment came into the repair shop. If that plug had been fitted before sale by the retailer or immediately after sale by the new owner then somehow it 'feels' a lot more original than a modern sheathed moulded PVC job on the end of a length of brown/blue/yellow&green.

As others have pointed out, there are some quite good compliant copies available now too. I'm pretty sure the OP wouldn't have called them original though.

Cheers,

GJ
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Old 6th Jun 2018, 10:28 am   #118
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Two ultimate undisputable scientific factors :- PSCC & 30mS ! Everything we all do, from power station managers to folk who install high speed modern domestic MCB's, and the mannie who tests your RCD before it leaves the factory, is to ensure that fault currents can never last longer than a uS or so, and your RCD operates a lot quicker than a maximum of 30 mS. Thirty milli-seconds is the period of one & a half cycles of 50Hz mains, which eminent doctors have told the electricity industry for decades is the very maximum which the human heart can take before the possibility of heart failure. And all fault current prevention equipment from power station, sub-stations, down to a wee Consumer Units MCB, is designed to protect buildings & us.
All aspects of what folk have discussed in this thread, insulation/fusing/conductor size/testing/regulations(whether legally binding or not)/etc., can be related to the two factors. Google PSCC and RCD's - there is a vast wealth of info.

Regards, David
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Old 7th Jun 2018, 11:26 am   #119
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2collection View Post
I can tell you, it's illegal to sell an item with a non-safety (uninsulated Live & Neutral pins) mains plug & has been illegal since 1975 apparently.
Apart form the MK ones, plugs with partially sleeved L and N pins were not generally available until the late 1980s, so that has to be wrong. Those bright red plastic (e.g. very 1980s) WG mains plugs have uninsulated pins, and you could buy those everywhere. Unless I've got hold of the wrong end of stick the book is rubbish (copyright or not).
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Old 7th Jun 2018, 12:58 pm   #120
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Studio263 View Post
Apart form the MK ones, plugs with partially sleeved L and N pins were not generally available until the late 1980s, so that has to be wrong.
I concur with Studio263 on this. I remember purchasing unsleeved 13A plugs back in 1986. I think it was later in the year when the sleeved types were becoming available. The sleeved types were definitely commonplace by 1988.

Regards
Symon.
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