The BBC's electronic TCF generator. Does anything like this exist outside of the BBC?

[red16v]

Just to add to HurtyAC’s post above, the slide scanner used in the BBC’s CAR area to source TCF area was indeed a Cintel model. I can’t remember the exact model number, it was about the size of an ‘American’ style fridge laid on it’s side. It used the somewhat notorious ‘sprod’ system to hold the slides - prone to jamming. (Southern TV had two similar Cintel models but these had rotating 45 degree slide carousels which were much much more reliable when changing slides).

[inaxeon]

Like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7m3CfxR6bI

[red16v]

No, that’s a Rank Cintel Mk3 telecine machine. It seems very difficult to find pictures of any Cintel slide and film kit.

[PaulM]

I'll take some pics of our Cintel 'Mk2' - the actual designation is tricky. Ours was a 'colourised' model (1969). A very expensive option to be using a 'Mk2' as a slide scanner. Cintel's history and products need closer study - their history is ancient and needs looking at more closely.

Within our collection is a 2" slide of Test Card C said to be used in an FSS - I wonder if the original TCF was actually on 2"?

Also in the collection are a lot of large format glass test card slides of many designs and types (all monochrome). What's to note is the quality. They are stunning glass plate photographs of real graphics. I remember as a Marconi student apprentice in the mid 70s seeing the test chart laboratory. The centre piece was a full format glass plate camera on rails to photograph the immaculate charts produced by hand in large scale (wall sized). The pictures would have been 20-40 megapixel plus by today's 'measure', and the source photos were amazing. The likes of these were scaled down to make the slides, be they 1/2 format, 2" or 35 mm. A different world, and a hard act for digital imaging of the 80s to follow.

Best regards,

Paul M
BECG www.becg.tv

[Panrock]

This is an interesting thread. The technicalities though are above my head.

He dismissed my endeavour as being entirely pointless >:| (I suppose technically speaking everything we do here is pointless) but it is a bit disappointing ...

I have to say I am so familiar with encountering this reaction to a project, which can otherwise seem so compelling when you're personally involved with it. I suppose it's because a certain type of engineering mind sees more value in breaking new ground, rather than going over - and celebrating - what has already been done.

Sorry, can't help with the technical details. But I remember that, on the 4½th floor 'wedge' at Television Centre, there was a slide scanner in the apparatus room opposite Network Control Two (NC2). 35mm slides were placed in this scanner to illustrate the next programme junction by a network secretary. I remember glimpsing its scanning raster, which was light greeny-blue, and wondering why it wasn't white.

(As an aside) the caption sources used during junctions were monochrome with the colour added by a colour synthesiser. These were: 'Noddy'- a multi-position camera that enabled selection of a chosen 12" x 9" card caption (and nodded when it came to rest!), and the 'Clock Camera' - a single static unit.

[inaxeon]

Originally Posted by PaulM

I'll take some pics of our Cintel 'Mk2' - the actual designation is tricky.

Yes please!

[PaulM]

Cintel 'Mk2' - I have a pic of half of ours already on file, a period picture and some sales stuff about an earlier slide scanner. I have some more sales brochures etc., but not ready to hand. Recollections vary as to what constitutes a 'Mk2' and it seems that that designation was not really applied until the famous MkIII appeared.

Our Cintel 'Mk2' needs a good clean before it goes up to the museum. Its CRT cradles, gates and various other parts are in better storage ready to be re-united with the main frames. It's 16 mm and 35 mm.

Love to have some help moving it . . .
We've already moved most of the other big telecines, although the Marconi 'fish fryer' B3404 hasn't made the trip yet.
You can see some of the machines in the TK/VT rooms in a walk-through that the University of Lincoln did for us 6 months ago here:
https://becg.org.uk/projects/hemswell/hemswell-tour/

Things have moved on since that was shot.

Best regards,

Paul M
BECG www.becg.tv

[inaxeon]

Originally Posted by PaulM

Cintel 'Mk2' - I have a pic of half of ours already on file, a period picture and some sales stuff about an earlier slide scanner. I have some more sales brochures etc., but not ready to hand. Recollections vary as to what constitutes a 'Mk2' and it seems that that designation was not really applied until the famous MkIII appeared.

Our Cintel 'Mk2' needs a good clean before it goes up to the museum. Its CRT cradles, gates and various other parts are in better storage ready to be re-united with the main frames. It's 16 mm and 35 mm.

Love to have some help moving it . . .
We've already moved most of the other big telecines, although the Marconi 'fish fryer' B3404 hasn't made the trip yet.
You can see some of the machines in the TK/VT rooms in a walk-through that the University of Lincoln did for us 6 months ago here:
https://becg.org.uk/projects/hemswell/hemswell-tour/

Things have moved on since that was shot.

Best regards,

Paul M
BECG www.becg.tv

My gosh it has twice as many knobs as the BA/10. Looks like it needs TLC too. Let us know if it ends up anywhere it can be seen. Would be interesting to document some time!

[PaulM]

Yes, it will be available to see and sometime this year - subject to volunteers and effort at our museum. There's so much to do and it's all 100% voluntary (nobody is paid for this - it's not commercial). Donations of money and time always welcome and the more of both, the sooner we will have the likes of the Cintel Mk2 up at the museum. It's actually not bad. It was 'pulled' hot and working some 25 years ago by me and BECG Sec Dave Hill. All its 'vitals' are safely stowed.

Best regards,

Paul M
BECG
www.becg.tv

[red16v]

Originally Posted by red16v

No, that’s a Rank Cintel Mk3 telecine machine. It seems very difficult to find pictures of any Cintel slide and film kit.

Originally Posted by PaulM

Cintel 'Mk2' - I have a pic of half of ours already on file, a period picture and some sales stuff about an earlier slide scanner. I have some more sales brochures etc., but not ready to hand. Recollections vary as to what constitutes a 'Mk2' and it seems that that designation was not really applied until the famous MkIII appeared.

Our Cintel 'Mk2' needs a good clean before it goes up to the museum. Its CRT cradles, gates and various other parts are in better storage ready to be re-united with the main frames. It's 16 mm and 35 mm.

Love to have some help moving it . . .
We've already moved most of the other big telecines, although the Marconi 'fish fryer' B3404 hasn't made the trip yet.
You can see some of the machines in the TK/VT rooms in a walk-through that the University of Lincoln did for us 6 months ago here:
https://becg.org.uk/projects/hemswell/hemswell-tour/

Things have moved on since that was shot.

Best regards,

Paul M
BECG www.becg.tv

We had 4 Mk1 Channels, 2 were 35mm and 2 were 16mm - all were converted to colour working - all solid state. We also had 4 Mk2 channels of which 2 were 35mm and 2 were 16mm. The Mk2 ‘s were very similar if not identical to the picture of your machine, each was about 3 racks in width and the RGB outputs were sent to CAR for encoding. I was not aware of any individual Cintel machines being both 35mm and 16mm capable until the Mk3 came along, we had two of those (hopping patch) serial numbers 2 and 3- nifty! So I am curious that your machine appears to be ‘dual standard’ if you like. From memory the original’ Mk3 only used the film’s sprocket holes to ensure the film was physically aligned up to the optical path correctly (for correct optical scanning) and the film was actually linearly driven by a capstan? I think in later years Cintel produced a film gate for 8mm and slide scanning.

Your brochure picture of a Cintel slide scanner must surely be a very early machine? Maybe all valve? All the Cintel slide scanners I saw and worked with were only 2 racks in width. As per my earlier post, the BBC TCF one was 2 racks works in width but laid on its side, The one’s at Southern were similar but used the different slide carousel arrangement I mentioned. But I also used the same ‘two racks’ worth in a standing arrangement (so really just like a fridge/freezer combo!) but with the sprod arrangement. Seems to me Cintel made a wide range of variations on a theme!

As per Panrock’s post, the scanning crt’s were indeed pale green in colour to the human eye but of course they must have produced a fair amount of all 3 primary colours. They were operated at quite a high EHT and from memory there were X-ray hazard warning stickers in place, an even dimmer memory is that the cabinet door behind which the crt sat was part of an interlock system that shut the EHT/crt off if the door was opened (could be defeated by a suitably placed biro).

I know what you mean about Cintel’s history being unclear. Quite recently on holiday I met an ex-Cintel engineer from the late 1960’s and asked him if he had any info but I’m afraid he had none, I was quite disappointed but hey ho.

[PaulM]

Very briefly in response to your post - I'm up at the museum working(!) - a couple of comments:

I probably wasn't too clear - we have two machines like the one in the picture. One is 16 mm, the other is 35 mm. That fits what you say, although we were told that they had been monochrome prior to 1969.

Yes, the slide scanner is an older one, but possibly the sort of machine that TCF was first shown with back in the earliest days of colour.

Best regards,

Paul M

[arjoll]

This is interesting stuff. Sort of relevant - TVNZ and it's predecessors (NZBC, TV1, South Pacific TV) used an F-inspired card that I just remember from when I was a kid. Years ago when something else came up on the forum I had a bit of a look and found that my memory wasn't wrong - but the only reference I found was a YouTube video of DX TV from Australia!

https://youtu.be/OGYZ7oy1BbQ

There's bad interference there (not surprising) with breakthrough from another site with a Philips card. Channel 1 horizontal was used by at least Hedgehope (our local) and Mt Kaukau (Wellington) high power sites, while vertical at Mt Studholme (South Canterbury) and I think Te Aroha (Waikato) so likely one of those pairs of sites (my guess is Kaukau for the test card and Hedgehope for the Philips pattern).

I contacted TVNZ about it and they appeared to have no clue about it!

Having a quick look tonight I see it's called T1 in the Wikipedia article on F and theres a less scratchy copy at https://ing-sat.hu/testcard-sat/new-zealand.htm

[inaxeon]

Originally Posted by arjoll

This is interesting stuff. Sort of relevant - TVNZ and it's predecessors (NZBC, TV1, South Pacific TV) used an F-inspired card that I just remember from when I was a kid. Years ago when something else came up on the forum I had a bit of a look and found that my memory wasn't wrong - but the only reference I found was a YouTube video of DX TV from Australia!

https://youtu.be/OGYZ7oy1BbQ

There's bad interference there (not surprising) with breakthrough from another site with a Philips card. Channel 1 horizontal was used by at least Hedgehope (our local) and Mt Kaukau (Wellington) high power sites, while vertical at Mt Studholme (South Canterbury) and I think Te Aroha (Waikato) so likely one of those pairs of sites (my guess is Kaukau for the test card and Hedgehope for the Philips pattern).

I contacted TVNZ about it and they appeared to have no clue about it!

Having a quick look tonight I see it's called T1 in the Wikipedia article on F and theres a less scratchy copy at https://ing-sat.hu/testcard-sat/new-zealand.htm

There was also an edition of TCF its self used in NZ. (here): https://64.media.tumblr.com/28298784...udho1_1280.jpg it was gone before I was born though. My parents remember it well.

I have tried to find about more about it but it is really hard to find anyone who knows anything. The stuff on the wikipedia page is partially written by me. The few scraps I learned is that it was optical only (we never had any electronic generator for it) after profuse whinging about the cost of maintaining the scanners it (and the hardware) was thrown away around 1977 and replaced by the Philips pattern.

[red16v]

Working at a couple of ITV companies we never had any TCF slides. As I think has been previously pointed out the companies were programme contractors not broadcasters. The ITA/IBA were the actual broadcasters and they were responsible for what was radiated from the transmitter sites. Out of normal contractor hours of course they used to source and transmit TCF themselves, each main transmitter site had a FSS slide scanner to source the slides. TCF was never really any use internally to the contractors for any sort of engineering purposes since if and when we needed to align video equipment we used purpose designed test and alignment signals.

[inaxeon]

That sound about right. Incidentally this image is taken inside an NZ TV transmitter:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_...ision_Test.jpg

Although not in use in that photo, there is a Philips pattern generator bolted into the rack at the top right. Very unlikely that slide scanners were used across the country. Also unlikely that wearing a suit was a standard practise.

[arjoll]

Originally Posted by inaxeon

There was also an edition of TCF its self used in NZ. (here): https://64.media.tumblr.com/28298784...udho1_1280.jpg it was gone before I was born though. My parents remember it well.

NZBC so that pre-dates my memories of it was well. My brother is four years older than me and used to refer to DNTV2 (which was bounced from Highcliff (then Mt Cargill) to Hedgehope via Kuriwao), but I don't remember TV2 let alone the NZBC days - I do remember South Pacific TV which I'm pretty sure we got off Hedgehope channel 3 in 1976 or so, and dad's got a photo of his "new" Thorn Precision 20 TV in a newly renovated lounge in early 1977 with a Philips test pattern - pic [url="https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showpost.php?p=168697&postcount=53"]here[/quote].

[QUOTE=inaxeon;1565257]That sound about right. Incidentally this image is taken inside an NZ TV transmitter:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_...ision_Test.jpg
Yup, Mt Kaukau in Wellington, channel 1 horizontal - used to interfere badly with Hedgehope, to the point that one time I remember getting really bad reception from Hedgehope which came right but with a ton of interference after a while. Turned out we were watching it all the way from Wellington!

That's why I wondered if in the Australian DX they were getting a mix of channel 1 from one site (possibly Kaukau 1H) which was using the T1 card from the studio and and another (possibly Hedgehope 1H) which was just using a Philips generator at the site. Wellington had local studios at Avalon, Invercargill, Timaru (Mt Studhome, 1V) and Hamilton (Te Aroha, 1V) didn't. Just a guess though, again I couldn't find much about it at all.

Saying that I do have a client who is ex-BCNZ who would have worked at both the AM and TV sites locally so now there's a better pic of the T1 card online I might ask him next time I'm there in case he remembers anything about it.

[Richard_FM]

I remember finding this online years ago:

[Radio Wrangler]

In later days, I would have thought that Tektronix as well as Snell & Wilcox would have had test signal generators which didn't use test card F and thereby tread on the toes of anyone else's copyright. For tests within commercial studios and their links onwards this is what I'd expect independent programme sourcing companies to do.

David

[inaxeon]

Originally Posted by Richard_FM

I remember finding this online years ago:

Ah I was looking for that. Looking at the detail of it, it's noisy but it will be a very good reference as I'm inevitably going to end up re-doing it from scratch. I wonder if you could also provide it by another means as the forum may be reducing its quality!

[Amtec123]

Originally Posted by red16v

Just to add to HurtyAC’s post above, the slide scanner used in the BBC’s CAR area to source TCF area was indeed a Cintel model. I can’t remember the exact model number, it was about the size of an ‘American’ style fridge laid on it’s side. It used the somewhat notorious ‘sprod’ system to hold the slides - prone to jamming. (Southern TV had two similar Cintel models but these had rotating 45 degree slide carousels which were much much more reliable when changing slides).

I worked for an ITV company and spent some time in telecine during early mid 70's. I recall we had all Cintel equipment 2x 35mm and 2x 16mm MKII twin lens m/c's with Westrex sound followers. We also had two Cintel slide scanners which sounded very much like the type red16v described. Both used straight 35mm slide carriages One was a single channel the other a 'double header', this meant live cutting between slides without going to black. The double header m/c was around 50% wider since it had two CRT's plus another channel of transistorised electronics. I thought they were also MKII's, likewise I have drawn a blank in finding pictures of said machines.

In use the single machine mostly sat all day displaying an end Thames Colour Production slide, which could be selected by any of the three studios. The double header enjoyed a more exciting life and was operated remotely from the studio gallery for opening title sequencies, and or end credits.