UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > General Vintage Technology > General Vintage Technology Discussions

Notices

General Vintage Technology Discussions For general discussions about vintage radio and other vintage electronics etc.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 26th May 2020, 3:36 pm   #21
Aub
Octode
 
Aub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Nuneaton, Warwickshire, UK.
Posts: 1,052
Default Re: Code-Breakers:Bletchley Park's Lost Heroes

What were the British and allies using to signal to their troops ? Did the Germans have an equivalent of Bletchley Park? Is this a daft question ?

Cheers

Aub
__________________
Ignorance of The Law is No Excuse - but I didnt know that!
Aub is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2020, 3:53 pm   #22
Dave Moll
Dekatron
 
Dave Moll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Cumbria (CA13), UK
Posts: 4,600
Default Re: Code-Breakers:Bletchley Park's Lost Heroes

According to the programme, no the Germans didn't have a direct equivalent of Bletchley Park, they had a number of separate decyphering groups that didn't exactly get on with one another.
__________________
Mending is better than Ending (cf Brave New World by Aldous Huxley)
Dave Moll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2020, 5:28 pm   #23
TrevorG3VLF
Octode
 
TrevorG3VLF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Matlock, Derbyshire, UK.
Posts: 1,378
Default Re: Code-Breakers:Bletchley Park's Lost Heroes

I have a AR77E in bad state. It was in a fire and found in a cellar. I modified it to get it to work. I used it for some years on 160, 80 and 20m bands,

Also found was a cylinder in an attic and the person who brought it in attacked it with Slilsons and a club hammer. We persuaded him to take it to the police who got the army take it away for explosion. It was an incendiary bomb.
__________________
If I can help somebody as I travel along
Then my living shall not be in vain.
TrevorG3VLF is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2020, 5:46 pm   #24
dsergeant
Heptode
 
dsergeant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Bracknell, Berkshire,UK.
Posts: 993
Default Re: Code-Breakers:Bletchley Park's Lost Heroes

That passed a pleasant hour last night on the box. I had seen bits of it when it was shown last time so good to see the bits I had missed. One of these days I will manage to visit Bletchley.

Dave
dsergeant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2020, 6:29 pm   #25
Aub
Octode
 
Aub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Nuneaton, Warwickshire, UK.
Posts: 1,052
Default Re: Code-Breakers:Bletchley Park's Lost Heroes

The use of music by Radiohead seemed to suit perfectly.
__________________
Ignorance of The Law is No Excuse - but I didnt know that!
Aub is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2020, 6:49 pm   #26
Radio Wrangler
Dekatron
 
Radio Wrangler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Fife, Scotland, UK.
Posts: 14,531
Default Re: Code-Breakers:Bletchley Park's Lost Heroes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aub View Post
What were the British and allies using to signal to their troops ?
Typex

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/19799/lot/79/

Which had also been made compatible with an American system.

David
__________________
Can't afford the volcanic island yet, but the plans for my monorail and the goons' uniforms are done
Radio Wrangler is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2020, 8:03 pm   #27
John KC0G
Pentode
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA.
Posts: 153
Default Re: Code-Breakers:Bletchley Park's Lost Heroes

Re, posts #17, #19 and #20 and the AR-77, the recent thread on Lend-Lease https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=167077 indicates that 1,070 AR-77's were supplied to the British Empire, excluding Canada. This is about 1/8 of the number of each of the numbers of AR-88's and HRO's supplied.

I wonder what happened to them. Did many of them go to the bottom of the Atlantic? Were they not as good as the AR-88 and HRO, and so were replaced or scrapped first? etc

Any way I am straying off topic in another fascinating thread. Thank you

John
John KC0G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2020, 12:54 pm   #28
dave walsh
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ramsbottom (Nr Bury) Lancs or Bexhill (Nr Hastings) Sussex.
Posts: 4,771
Default Re: Code-Breakers:Bletchley Park's Lost Heroes

Hi John. There should be other threads on this subject. From the seventies onwards, so called "urban myths" circulated re war time equipment going into abandoned mineshafts etc [in Staffordshire for example!]. Some information came out via the late Chas Miller's Radiophile magazine. It didn't seem likely but why would they do it anyway? We didn't really know anything about Land Lease arrangements then or that there was an agreement requiring a re-balancing of the market by destroying existing goods.

This would be similar to later arrangements in British Librarys when perfectly good stock, bought under special purchasing deals, had to be remaindered. [Fortunately I was living with a Librarian then so I had access to the books due to be pulped.] There was always scepticism when the dumping of equipment subject came up [on here as well] but the Land Lease explanation seemed feasible. If you can find the Biography of Ken Russel-Film Director, sadly no longer with us as well, he describes doing National Service in the 1950's. His unit is taken to Salisbury Plain where hundreds of vehicles are lined up, full of brand new equipment. The men are issued with crow bars and told to smash everything up [in not very delicate terms] by their Sargeant
when they are [understandably] a bit puzzled.

One of the best stories is about a scrap dealer buying valuable aluminium cases [for next to nothing] used to parachute in equipment! When they are opened they contain brand new AR88's in their protective packing

Aub not only did the Germans have 7 different Code Groups who disagreed [as Dave Moll said] I was amazed to hear that they, literally, fought each other-amazing Hopefully that's the correct use of "literally" for a change!

Dave W
dave walsh is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2020, 1:10 pm   #29
AC/HL
Moderator
 
AC/HL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Heckmondwike, West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 8,425
Default Re: Code-Breakers:Bletchley Park's Lost Heroes

They didn't want the redundant equipment, and contract inertia meant it was probably still piling up, to snuff out any resurgent industry before it could be nursed back into existence. Some was broken up for valuable metals, we were bankrupt at that point. Anything that could be exported, was, for quite a few years after. Wireless World adverts often stated "Export only". Nothing new about conspiracy theories. Facebook is the master, but not the midwife!
__________________
Bill, BVWS member
AC/HL is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2020, 3:06 pm   #30
Craig Sawyers
Nonode
 
Craig Sawyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Oxford, UK.
Posts: 2,529
Default Re: Code-Breakers:Bletchley Park's Lost Heroes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aub View Post
What were the British and allies using to signal to their troops ?
Typex

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/19799/lot/79/

Which had also been made compatible with an American system.

David
Wow. When I was working on the SZ42 there was an 80 year old cross dresser called Dorothy. He landed on the Normandy beaches at D+6, and his specialism was the Typex machines - fixing them, calibrating them. So guess what he was restoring at TNMOC? Yup - Typex machines. He also lent a hand with the SZ42 too.

A bit like Eddie Izzard - he was entirely heterosexual, married with children, but always liked to dress as a woman. Back in the days that it was very difficult or unwise to do so. Quite a character.

Craig
Craig Sawyers is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2020, 3:12 pm   #31
robinshack
Octode
 
robinshack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Spalding, Peterborough, Cambridgeshire, UK.
Posts: 1,167
Default Re: Code-Breakers:Bletchley Park's Lost Heroes

Not sure if this thread or the lend lease is suitable. Moderators please move if needed.

Reference the comments by Bill and Dave Walsh

Not lend lease exactly, but my experience might give a little insight.
In the early 90s a scrap electronic reclamation dealer I knew bought quite a lot of such items from a USA base in Germany and had it shipped back here for recycling. Several hundred tons.
Some very nice (when new, that is) gear. Including Harris 6 foot racks ssb fixed channel transceivers, Collins hf transceivers and a few Yaesu handhelds.
Most had been deliberately mangled by a bulldozer!
However, a few parts survived in an electronic fashion although not as pretty as when new!
The dealer told me the reason for the destruction was all to do with customs duty.
The US base was classed as being still part of the USA for customs duty and no import duty into Germany was levied. There were 3 options.
With the equipment now redundant, it could be transported back to USA as is. That was not viable as it was not wanted there either.
It could have the original duty be paid in full and then sold from Germany. That was too costly.
Or, it could be destroyed to the satisfaction of the German government inspector.
The last option was chosen.
Rob
__________________
I am also interested in and collect 00 model railway.

Last edited by robinshack; 27th May 2020 at 3:18 pm. Reason: Clarity
robinshack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2020, 3:22 pm   #32
turretslug
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Surrey, UK.
Posts: 3,344
Default Re: Code-Breakers:Bletchley Park's Lost Heroes

Certainly, from various threads over the years on the forum, the AR77 would seem to have been quite a good receiver, certainly for the pre-SSB amateur/keen SWL but I wonder if the availability of the AR88 meant that it was disdained more than it otherwise would have been? You could say that the war produced severe market distortion in that exceptionally large numbers of "governmental" grade AR88 receivers were produced over what would otherwise have been the case. There may have been a feeling that greater skill was required to tune in and stay on faint and ephemeral code signals with lesser receivers and so as many top-notch receivers as possible were necessary, regardless of cost, for vital monitoring work by hastily-trained operators.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave walsh View Post
not only did the Germans have 7 different Code Groups who disagreed [as Dave Moll said] I was amazed to hear that they, literally, fought each other-amazing?
The Nazi regime was doctrinally Darwinian in approach and those at the top were content to let the most ruthless and unpleasant ("loyal") people work their way to the top in each ministry, inefficient of resources and effort as it may have been. The members of the ruling cabal were often actually rather mediocre in most aspects of their governorship beyond mendacity and it frequently suited them to have underlings distracted by lower-level infighting. Their only aircraft carrier sat awaiting launch throughout the war amidst turf-wars over who was going to procure and run the air wing, how it should be crewed and armed and so on. Fortunately for history, "efficiency" was often more myth than reality.
turretslug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2020, 4:27 pm   #33
dave walsh
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ramsbottom (Nr Bury) Lancs or Bexhill (Nr Hastings) Sussex.
Posts: 4,771
Default Re: Code-Breakers:Bletchley Park's Lost Heroes

Very interesting "x"tra info from all concerned here, especially the Export Only Ads in WW [Bill]. I never really questioned why items were sold in that way Also Rob's "breakdown" of the redundant equipment situation. This is the most informative discussion of a long term "enigma" I've ever read. Regardless of the numbers re the AR77 receiver it took me a long time to find out about them and I don't think there were ever many on the British surplus market. A good set but for home use originally. There's more too on the disadvantage of the Nazi strict social structure with it's intolerant/devisive approach and an un-launched Aircraft Carrier. [Our more recent one had no Aircraft but that was probably just incompetence, like Hastings Pier with nothing on it.]
As for Dorothy the Typex expert, I can't imagine a similar individual surviving [so openly] on the Nazi side. Eddie Izzard is from Bexill of course Craig and very much lives up to his surname after running 50 Marathons. I've not met Eddie and missed him donating his family Model Railway to the local Museum here but I did have a chat with Grayson Perry [Claire] at the De La Warr Pavillion once-wearing a bright yellow dress and more make-up than Dusty Springfield! Maybe a sense of humour and the right attitude can win wars after all?
I saw "Those Who Dare" [1953] on TPTV earlier.

Dave

[That was Grayson in the dress by the way!]

Last edited by dave walsh; 27th May 2020 at 4:57 pm.
dave walsh is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2020, 4:57 pm   #34
McMurdo
Dekatron
 
McMurdo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Staffordshire Moorlands, UK.
Posts: 3,936
Default Re: Code-Breakers:Bletchley Park's Lost Heroes

re - post 28, heres the forum link to the discussion to avoid going OT

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=109586

and here's one of the Hansard memo's that mentions 500+ CRT's dumped in the same hole.

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-h...adio-equipment
__________________
Kevin
McMurdo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2020, 5:06 pm   #35
Radio Wrangler
Dekatron
 
Radio Wrangler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Fife, Scotland, UK.
Posts: 14,531
Default Re: Code-Breakers:Bletchley Park's Lost Heroes

Manufacturers were limited in access to raw materials. Certain stuff could only go into goods destined to bring in foreign currency, so the goods, once built were export only.

It led to some results which have lasted almost to today. Rover conserved their limited quota of steel by sticking an aluminium body on the Land Rover. Aluminium was a very rare material in the twenties, and then it became easier to get than steel for a while. Due to the time in which I grew up, I think aluminium is the right stuff for a radio chassis, and anything with steel is cheapskating.

David

David
__________________
Can't afford the volcanic island yet, but the plans for my monorail and the goons' uniforms are done
Radio Wrangler is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2020, 5:36 pm   #36
Electronpusher0
Heptode
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Bognor Regis, West Sussex, UK.
Posts: 875
Default Re: Code-Breakers:Bletchley Park's Lost Heroes

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerEvans View Post
If you want to know more about details of the tunny code breaking effort and Colossus internals then I can recommend the book 'Colossus' by Jack Copeland and others. Astonishing details including how Bill Tutte deduced the SZ42 internals, the extreme reliability of the (I think EF50s) in Colossus and the tiny differences from randomness in the teleprinter code that had to be exploited to get the initial wheel settings. And it was all only possible because of the catastrophic error of procedure in the two messages that Craig referred to which were not only sent with the same initial wheel settings, but in the early days of the SZ42 some of the initial wheel settings were sent in plain text at the start of the message. The buterflies wings ...!

Roger
Having watched and enjoyed the program I have just bought and started reading "Colossos" by Jack Copeland. Fascinating stuff.

Peter
Electronpusher0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th May 2020, 10:44 am   #37
Malcolm G6ANZ
Heptode
 
Malcolm G6ANZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Bristol, UK.
Posts: 677
Default Re: Code-Breakers:Bletchley Park's Lost Heroes

As a follow up the the Bletchley Park programme I have a,probably easy, query about Enigma and Lorenz. Given that at the start of each day a new set of wheel positions are used. So after the first message the wheels will have moved on to new positions. This I understand. All the books I have read now discuss how the code breakers worked to break the wheel settings. What I am having difficulty understanding is what happens on the second and subsequent messages. Are the wheels reset to the beginning as set out in the daily wheel positions or do they carry on from where the wheels stopped? Logic would say that the wheels are reset but this is never mentioned.
May be I'm not fully understanding the sequences involved and the answer is so obvious that its not mentioned
Malcolm
Malcolm G6ANZ is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:28 pm.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2020, Paul Stenning.