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General Vintage Technology Discussions For general discussions about vintage radio and other vintage electronics etc. |
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7th Dec 2019, 7:56 pm | #1 |
Pentode
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bury, Lancashire, UK.
Posts: 138
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Aircraft non directional beacons
Hi
A few years ago I used to listen to local ndb,s on my R1155 ,frequencies ranged from about 130 kHz to 450 kHz ish now I can't find them,with modern sat nav technology have they been switched off OR (I hope not ) has my set gone very deaf.regards Keith. |
7th Dec 2019, 8:10 pm | #2 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Wiltshire, UK.
Posts: 13,953
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
The NDB network has become rather diminished in recent years - because, as you thought, it's been replaced by better systems.
[The same applies to marine radio-beacons/navaids like LORAN and Decca - and their optical equivalents the lighthouses] |
7th Dec 2019, 8:23 pm | #3 |
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Fife, Scotland, UK.
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
You're not allowed to be totally dependent on GPS. Someone in the Pentagon has a switch to shut down the whole system and will use it if the US feels someone is using it against them. So you have to treat GPS as if it could vanish at any time, and that you should have back-ups to handle this. VOR/DME/ADF form an alternative which has been proven to work, though harder work for the pilot.
So the NDB network has thinned down a lot, but I think just enough of it will be kept for some time, and pilots will be examined on their use of it. still got a few audible here. David
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7th Dec 2019, 8:44 pm | #4 |
Heptode
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Scratby, Norfolk, UK.
Posts: 648
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
Hi Keith,
There are still plenty of NDBs around at the moment, , but probably not for much longer - the UK marine beacons are gone, but still a fair few UK Aero NDBs . Frequencies I can receive them on range from around 260 to 520kHz. This season so far I have received 124 different beacons, nearly all in October using an indoor homemade 90cm square loop, feeding a Datong VLF converter into a Yaesu FT857. No Canadian ones yet this year, but SAL in the Cape Verde Islands and OZN in Greenland come in in fine when conditions are right, - over a darkness path of course. So don't give up on them yet, - still at least 4 months left this season! Kind regards Dave G0ELJ |
8th Dec 2019, 9:59 pm | #5 |
Pentode
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bury, Lancashire, UK.
Posts: 138
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
Hi Dave thanks for the info I will try again with the 1155 around those frequencies it's the same set and aerials so may be the sensitivity has dropped
It is over 70 years old and I don't think all that sensitive when new.regards Keith |
8th Dec 2019, 10:49 pm | #6 |
Heptode
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: West Lothian, UK.
Posts: 760
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
Thought you might have received MCH from Bury.
https://ourairports.com/navaids/MCH/Manchester_NDB_GB/
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George |
9th Dec 2019, 10:50 am | #7 | |
Dekatron
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: near Reading (and sometimes Torquay)
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
Quote:
Thanks to there being multiple systems, aircraft will soon be relying on it. Some already do for blind landing. What will happen next is that the airways system will be redesigned since it currently (and dangerously) routes aircraft over navaids. With GPS it will be possible to have routes that are just lines on a map with no physical waypoints and this will make air traffic control a lot easier. |
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9th Dec 2019, 1:17 pm | #8 | |
Pentode
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Coventry, West Midlands, UK.
Posts: 220
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
Quote:
Highly unlikely, a typical modern airliner uses a combination of inertial reference systems, GPS and radio aids for navigation and this is unlikely to change significantly any time soon. As for "blind landing" current airliners use ILS (instrument landing system) for this. Development work is ongoing for ground based augmented satellite systems that will probably eventually replace ILS but that is still some way off yet. Certification for new systems in aviation is often a long and slow process and things rarely change quickly. |
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9th Dec 2019, 1:37 pm | #9 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Heckmondwike, West Yorkshire, UK.
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
NDBs are not actually part of the ILS system, just another navaid like DME for instance.
Jamming of any service is illegal, and therefore OT for the forum. |
9th Dec 2019, 1:52 pm | #10 |
Nonode
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Dukinfield, Cheshire, UK.
Posts: 2,034
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
I've received a good number of UK and European NDB's over the years. I think one of the problems is the generally rising noise level in this part of the band, indeed I can barely hear any on my long wire antenna any more! Only the Wellbrook loop will reveal them.
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Andy G1HBE. |
9th Dec 2019, 2:03 pm | #11 |
Dekatron
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
Hi,
Pardon my ignorance, but are these the beacons that can be heard right at the bottom end of the LW band? I've heard a few down there that send repeated three letter IDs in morse. I've wondered what they were for years. Cheers, Pete.
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9th Dec 2019, 2:11 pm | #12 |
Dekatron
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Greater Manchester, UK.
Posts: 18,676
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
How long has LEC Console/Sonne been off the air?
As a kid of 12 or 13 I used to be fascinated by it listening on my Grandmas TR82, and I pretty much worked out in my head how it worked.
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9th Dec 2019, 2:15 pm | #13 | |
Pentode
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Coventry, West Midlands, UK.
Posts: 220
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
Quote:
I was responding to the post by GMB that seemed to suggest that satellite based navigation would be likely to replace radio based navigation aids and ILS which as I said is highly unlikely any time soon. |
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9th Dec 2019, 2:16 pm | #14 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Surrey, UK.
Posts: 4,385
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
That's the ones- I recall hearing a strong one right at the bottom of MW as a kid on a Pye battery valve portable (mini-frame aerial in lid) and being intrigued. Nowadays when travelling, I take a little Sony portable whose dual-conversion allows LW tuning to 519kHz. Sad, eh!
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9th Dec 2019, 2:45 pm | #15 |
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Fife, Scotland, UK.
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
Once you've found out what they are, they become substantially less interesting. I still miss Jingle Bells in top band, though.
If all of LF/MF/HF gets abandoned and becomes a sort of electromagnetic national park, maybe we ought to have something churning out the jingle bells sound as a bit of international heritage? Oh, and a Lincolnshire poacher running around the place... not forgetting a buzzer and Midnight in Moscow. Things in aviation have to be changed slowly, though. Progress has to be evolutionary because you can't update every aircraft and every ground installation overnight. There is only so much qualified labour and there's always something in the air. The US has required all aircraft to get equipped with ADSB-OUT and a WAAS certified GPS receiver before 2020 as they are going to transition air traffic control to ADSB-out (using GPS fixes) for area navigation. If GPS does get shut off, the scale of the consequences is going to be quite something... and in the land of the lawsuit, too! David
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Can't afford the volcanic island yet, but the plans for my monorail and the goons' uniforms are done |
9th Dec 2019, 3:22 pm | #16 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: near Reading (and sometimes Torquay)
Posts: 3,086
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
They buy illegal Chinese jammers to stop their employers knowing where they are via the on-board GPS tracking system. This first came to light when they interefered with ILS calibration at airports that now use GPS because it makes it easier.
My comments on aircraft GPS use were based on a conversation I had with a senior air traffic controller. I was surprised how far GPS use has come in some aircraft. But I understand that there is still an NDB at Woodley! |
9th Dec 2019, 5:49 pm | #17 |
Pentode
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Coventry, West Midlands, UK.
Posts: 220
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
Ah ok I hadn't heard of that. Just to clarify ILS does not use GPS so there must be some confusion / misinformation in that explanation.
There are still over 100 active NDB's in the UK http://www.infotechcomms.net/downloads/ndbs.pdf |
9th Dec 2019, 5:58 pm | #18 | |
Dekatron
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: near Reading (and sometimes Torquay)
Posts: 3,086
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
Quote:
The ILS system at an airport has to be constantly checked and adjusted to cope with any changes that might occur to the shape of the beams which can be warped for all kinds of reasons. Apparently this is now done by flying down the ILS beams using differential GPS to check they are correct. |
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9th Dec 2019, 6:47 pm | #19 | |
Dekatron
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Wiltshire, UK.
Posts: 13,953
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
Quote:
Though there could be an opportunity for the "Pantry-Transmitter" recreation of such things for the desperately-nostalgic, along with a locally-synthesized version of DUGA-3/Russian-Woodpecker, and "Magdeburg Annie" Zwo Zwo Nul Noyun Funf. Zwo Zwo Nul Noyun Funf. My idea of torture is being required to listen to the Radio Tirana station-ID non-stop: https://youtu.be/B2mBP40w_hU |
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9th Dec 2019, 10:13 pm | #20 |
Heptode
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Scratby, Norfolk, UK.
Posts: 648
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
Hi Graham,
LEC Stavanger Consol Station on 319kHz has been off the air for decades as have all the Consol Stations. Unlike the others, LEC became an NDB for some years, then the callsign changed to VAR (Varhaug), and to this day it still transmits on 319kHz. Not always too strong here on the Norfolk coast, but this is the right time of year if you want to listen for it (darkness path of course.) I always enjoyed listening for and taking bearings from Consol, and I still have the Admiralty Consol Chart and the Consol Handbook. Kind regards Dave G0ELJ |