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Old 7th Dec 2019, 7:56 pm   #1
G1RAO keith
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Default Aircraft non directional beacons

Hi
A few years ago I used to listen to local ndb,s on my R1155 ,frequencies ranged from about 130 kHz to 450 kHz ish now I can't find them,with modern sat nav technology have they been switched off OR (I hope not ) has my set gone very deaf.regards Keith.
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Old 7th Dec 2019, 8:10 pm   #2
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Default Re: Aircraft non directional beacons

The NDB network has become rather diminished in recent years - because, as you thought, it's been replaced by better systems.

[The same applies to marine radio-beacons/navaids like LORAN and Decca - and their optical equivalents the lighthouses]
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Old 7th Dec 2019, 8:23 pm   #3
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Default Re: Aircraft non directional beacons

You're not allowed to be totally dependent on GPS. Someone in the Pentagon has a switch to shut down the whole system and will use it if the US feels someone is using it against them. So you have to treat GPS as if it could vanish at any time, and that you should have back-ups to handle this. VOR/DME/ADF form an alternative which has been proven to work, though harder work for the pilot.

So the NDB network has thinned down a lot, but I think just enough of it will be kept for some time, and pilots will be examined on their use of it.

still got a few audible here.

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Old 7th Dec 2019, 8:44 pm   #4
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Default Re: Aircraft non directional beacons

Hi Keith,

There are still plenty of NDBs around at the moment, , but probably
not for much longer - the UK marine beacons are gone, but still a
fair few UK Aero NDBs .
Frequencies I can receive them on range from around 260 to 520kHz.
This season so far I have received 124 different beacons, nearly all in October
using an indoor homemade 90cm square loop, feeding a Datong VLF converter
into a Yaesu FT857.
No Canadian ones yet this year, but SAL in the Cape Verde Islands and
OZN in Greenland come in in fine when conditions are right, - over a darkness path of course.
So don't give up on them yet, - still at least 4 months left this season!

Kind regards
Dave G0ELJ
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Old 8th Dec 2019, 9:59 pm   #5
G1RAO keith
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Default Re: Aircraft non directional beacons

Hi Dave thanks for the info I will try again with the 1155 around those frequencies it's the same set and aerials so may be the sensitivity has dropped
It is over 70 years old and I don't think all that sensitive when new.regards Keith
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Old 8th Dec 2019, 10:49 pm   #6
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Default Re: Aircraft non directional beacons

Thought you might have received MCH from Bury.
https://ourairports.com/navaids/MCH/Manchester_NDB_GB/
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Old 9th Dec 2019, 10:50 am   #7
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Default Re: Aircraft non directional beacons

Quote:
You're not allowed to be totally dependent on GPS. Someone in the Pentagon has a switch to shut down the whole system
Not so much these days. Apparently most decent GPS receivers operate using all 3 main systems so no one country can shut it all down. But the bigger hazard is jamming, which already happens a lot on local scale thanks to some lorry drivers.

Thanks to there being multiple systems, aircraft will soon be relying on it. Some already do for blind landing. What will happen next is that the airways system will be redesigned since it currently (and dangerously) routes aircraft over navaids. With GPS it will be possible to have routes that are just lines on a map with no physical waypoints and this will make air traffic control a lot easier.
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Old 9th Dec 2019, 1:17 pm   #8
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Default Re: Aircraft non directional beacons

Quote:
Originally Posted by GMB View Post
But the bigger hazard is jamming, which already happens a lot on local scale thanks to some lorry drivers.
Not quite sure what you mean by this? How are lorry drivers jamming GPS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GMB View Post
Thanks to there being multiple systems, aircraft will soon be relying on it. Some already do for blind landing.
Highly unlikely, a typical modern airliner uses a combination of inertial reference systems, GPS and radio aids for navigation and this is unlikely to change significantly any time soon. As for "blind landing" current airliners use ILS (instrument landing system) for this. Development work is ongoing for ground based augmented satellite systems that will probably eventually replace ILS but that is still some way off yet. Certification for new systems in aviation is often a long and slow process and things rarely change quickly.
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Old 9th Dec 2019, 1:37 pm   #9
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Default Re: Aircraft non directional beacons

NDBs are not actually part of the ILS system, just another navaid like DME for instance.

Jamming of any service is illegal, and therefore OT for the forum.
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Old 9th Dec 2019, 1:52 pm   #10
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Default Re: Aircraft non directional beacons

I've received a good number of UK and European NDB's over the years. I think one of the problems is the generally rising noise level in this part of the band, indeed I can barely hear any on my long wire antenna any more! Only the Wellbrook loop will reveal them.
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Old 9th Dec 2019, 2:03 pm   #11
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Smile Re: Aircraft non directional beacons

Hi,
Pardon my ignorance, but are these the beacons that can be heard right at the bottom end of the LW band? I've heard a few down there that send repeated three letter IDs in morse.
I've wondered what they were for years.
Cheers, Pete.
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Old 9th Dec 2019, 2:11 pm   #12
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Default Re: Aircraft non directional beacons

How long has LEC Console/Sonne been off the air?

As a kid of 12 or 13 I used to be fascinated by it listening on my Grandmas TR82, and I pretty much worked out in my head how it worked.
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Old 9th Dec 2019, 2:15 pm   #13
Paul JD
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Default Re: Aircraft non directional beacons

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Originally Posted by AC/HL View Post
NDBs are not actually part of the ILS system, just another navaid like DME for instance.
As a qualified pilot I am fully aware of this

I was responding to the post by GMB that seemed to suggest that satellite based navigation would be likely to replace radio based navigation aids and ILS which as I said is highly unlikely any time soon.
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Old 9th Dec 2019, 2:16 pm   #14
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Default Re: Aircraft non directional beacons

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Originally Posted by Tractorfan View Post
Hi,
Pardon my ignorance, but are these the beacons that can be heard right at the bottom end of the LW band? I've heard a few down there that send repeated three letter IDs in morse.
I've wondered what they were for years.
Cheers, Pete.
That's the ones- I recall hearing a strong one right at the bottom of MW as a kid on a Pye battery valve portable (mini-frame aerial in lid) and being intrigued. Nowadays when travelling, I take a little Sony portable whose dual-conversion allows LW tuning to 519kHz. Sad, eh!
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Old 9th Dec 2019, 2:45 pm   #15
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Default Re: Aircraft non directional beacons

Once you've found out what they are, they become substantially less interesting. I still miss Jingle Bells in top band, though.

If all of LF/MF/HF gets abandoned and becomes a sort of electromagnetic national park, maybe we ought to have something churning out the jingle bells sound as a bit of international heritage? Oh, and a Lincolnshire poacher running around the place... not forgetting a buzzer and Midnight in Moscow.

Things in aviation have to be changed slowly, though. Progress has to be evolutionary because you can't update every aircraft and every ground installation overnight. There is only so much qualified labour and there's always something in the air.

The US has required all aircraft to get equipped with ADSB-OUT and a WAAS certified GPS receiver before 2020 as they are going to transition air traffic control to ADSB-out (using GPS fixes) for area navigation.

If GPS does get shut off, the scale of the consequences is going to be quite something... and in the land of the lawsuit, too!

David
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Old 9th Dec 2019, 3:22 pm   #16
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Default Re: Aircraft non directional beacons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul JD View Post
How are lorry drivers jamming GPS?
They buy illegal Chinese jammers to stop their employers knowing where they are via the on-board GPS tracking system. This first came to light when they interefered with ILS calibration at airports that now use GPS because it makes it easier.

My comments on aircraft GPS use were based on a conversation I had with a senior air traffic controller. I was surprised how far GPS use has come in some aircraft.

But I understand that there is still an NDB at Woodley!
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Old 9th Dec 2019, 5:49 pm   #17
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Default Re: Aircraft non directional beacons

Ah ok I hadn't heard of that. Just to clarify ILS does not use GPS so there must be some confusion / misinformation in that explanation.

There are still over 100 active NDB's in the UK http://www.infotechcomms.net/downloads/ndbs.pdf
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Old 9th Dec 2019, 5:58 pm   #18
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Default Re: Aircraft non directional beacons

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Just to clarify ILS does not use GPS so there must be some confusion / misinformation in that explanation.
No confusion.

The ILS system at an airport has to be constantly checked and adjusted to cope with any changes that might occur to the shape of the beams which can be warped for all kinds of reasons. Apparently this is now done by flying down the ILS beams using differential GPS to check they are correct.
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Old 9th Dec 2019, 6:47 pm   #19
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Default Re: Aircraft non directional beacons

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Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler View Post
If all of LF/MF/HF gets abandoned and becomes a sort of electromagnetic national park, maybe we ought to have something churning out the jingle bells sound as a bit of international heritage? Oh, and a Lincolnshire poacher running around the place... not forgetting a buzzer and Midnight in Moscow.
Considering the power required, and the real-estate to support the antennas, I doubt this will happen.

Though there could be an opportunity for the "Pantry-Transmitter" recreation of such things for the desperately-nostalgic, along with a locally-synthesized version of DUGA-3/Russian-Woodpecker, and "Magdeburg Annie"

Zwo Zwo Nul Noyun Funf. Zwo Zwo Nul Noyun Funf.

My idea of torture is being required to listen to the Radio Tirana station-ID non-stop: https://youtu.be/B2mBP40w_hU
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Old 9th Dec 2019, 10:13 pm   #20
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Default Re: Aircraft non directional beacons

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Originally Posted by rambo1152 View Post
How long has LEC Console/Sonne been off the air?
Hi Graham,

LEC Stavanger Consol Station on 319kHz has been off the air for
decades as have all the Consol Stations.

Unlike the others, LEC became an NDB for some years, then the
callsign changed to VAR (Varhaug), and to this day it still transmits
on 319kHz.

Not always too strong here on the Norfolk coast, but this is the
right time of year if you want to listen for it (darkness path of course.)

I always enjoyed listening for and taking bearings from Consol,
and I still have the Admiralty Consol Chart and the Consol Handbook.

Kind regards
Dave G0ELJ
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