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Old 30th May 2020, 4:49 pm   #41
GrimJosef
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Default Re: BT 'Chiltern' telecom towers

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Originally Posted by Dave Moll View Post
... OS maps are available online, scroll left a bit from Stokenchurch and a mast is shown between Hill Farm and Kiln Farm just north of the M40, which (from my distant memories of driving that way in the past) seems about right ...
Thanks Dave. You're right, that is the location of the tower. I was aware that it is on the current map. I just wondered if it was kept 'hidden' in the Cold Wartime past.

Cheers,

GJ
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Old 30th May 2020, 5:44 pm   #42
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Default Re: BT 'Chiltern' telecom towers

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The microwave network was a carrier of signals - not an end-point transmitter.

BT carried the video signals from the various studios to the main station transmitters. At that point BBC/IBA combined the video with the audio and transmitted to the public. (Sound was originally sent over high-quality landline; in later times it went to "Sound in Sync" multiplexing on the video stream). BBC had a small number of microwave links of their own, but the vast majority was BT. The BBC management didn't see themselves as "bit-carriers", I understand.

What is not generally known is that BT also provided network switching to route programme sources to regional transmitters, and this switched as required by daily programme schedules. This was controlled by several BT-manned network switching centres (NSCs). The largest was at the BT Tower (actually in the associated ground-level building). This was a large installation, full of monitors and switching consoles. Not some kind of mock-up as has been suggested. I worked in the most northerly NSC in Aberdeen.
The whole system worked well as a collaborative team structure (BBC/BT/IBA). I wonder if such an organisation would be viable these days, given modern business and management practices ?
I learn a lot on this site! Were the NSCs for both BBC and ITV stations?
As far as memory goes, ITV switching was carried out by BT (since the programme providers were all separate companies). The BBC carried some switching themselves, but their links also routed via the NSCs. This allowed maintenance, cross patching and possible re-routes under fault conditions.
The active channels were quality monitored at the NSCs by BT - and any loss or signal degradation had to be attended to within seconds ! Of course they paid BT very serious money for this...
Would just like to clarify this. BT was of course responsible for switching the circuits between the ITV companies according to the daily programme schedule as required. But the individual ITV companies were responsible for what was actually carried on those circuits and did that switching on their own premises. I used to perform network switching duties at one of the major ITV companies. The companies were ‘just’ programme contractors (not broadcasters) and were not permitted to own circuits or indeed to even book circuits. We had to go through the Lines booking staff at the IBA. One or two of the companies did have their own private microwave circuits, from memory ATV and Anglia? but these were definitely not used for network programme distribution. Don’t know anything about the BBC’s arrangements.
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Old 30th May 2020, 5:50 pm   #43
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Default Re: BT 'Chiltern' telecom towers

This site, provided by the National Library of Scotland, is useful for searching some historical maps.
The various options allow you to find a location, in several different ways, than look at an earlier map for comparison: https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side...s=11&right=osm
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Old 30th May 2020, 5:53 pm   #44
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Default Re: BT 'Chiltern' telecom towers

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... OS maps are available online, scroll left a bit from Stokenchurch and a mast is shown between Hill Farm and Kiln Farm just north of the M40, which (from my distant memories of driving that way in the past) seems about right ...
Thanks Dave. You're right, that is the location of the tower. I was aware that it is on the current map. I just wondered if it was kept 'hidden' in the Cold Wartime past.

Cheers,

GJ
It was on the 1977 1:2,500 and on the 1980 1:10,000 maps. Click on the '-' in top left several times to get the 'free' zoom level.
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Old 30th May 2020, 5:58 pm   #45
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Default Re: BT 'Chiltern' telecom towers

Was there one of the heavy metal lattice versions just south of Carlisle? In a previous working life we did some work on BT sites and there was a site there which had a really strong looking, oversized mast with some big microwave horns on the corners. I used to be able to see the mast as soon as I crossed the M6 from east to west, but I've just tried looking from the same spot on street view and I can't seem to see it. Has it been taken down?
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Old 30th May 2020, 6:22 pm   #46
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Default Re: BT 'Chiltern' telecom towers

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Was there one of the heavy metal lattice versions just south of Carlisle? In a previous working life we did some work on BT sites and there was a site there which had a really strong looking, oversized mast with some big microwave horns on the corners. I used to be able to see the mast as soon as I crossed the M6 from east to west, but I've just tried looking from the same spot on street view and I can't seem to see it. Has it been taken down?
There was apparently:
http://www.dgsys.co.uk/btmicrowave/sites/110.php

EDIT: This?
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Old 30th May 2020, 7:26 pm   #47
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Default Re: BT 'Chiltern' telecom towers

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moll View Post
... OS maps are available online, scroll left a bit from Stokenchurch and a mast is shown between Hill Farm and Kiln Farm just north of the M40, which (from my distant memories of driving that way in the past) seems about right ...
Thanks Dave. You're right, that is the location of the tower. I was aware that it is on the current map. I just wondered if it was kept 'hidden' in the Cold Wartime past.

Cheers,

GJ
This map was published 1945 and states "Full Revision 1930 with later corrections".
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Old 30th May 2020, 8:13 pm   #48
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EDIT: This?
Has to be doesn't it? That is unmistakably a GPO / BT building it is hanging off the side of, although the big conch-shell horns I remember like the ones on some of the other masts in this thread are gone.
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Old 30th May 2020, 8:39 pm   #49
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but I'd be very surprised if any flying at typical balloon heights over the site itself would have been tolerated.
We didn't fly over it, but it was on the pilots map.
 
Old 30th May 2020, 10:21 pm   #50
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Default Re: BT 'Chiltern' telecom towers

I hope all these microwave towers are retained, whatever their design or name. I've always called the one at Tinshill 'The Cookridge Tower', rightly or wrongly. Likewise, the taller one at Heaton Park was also called The Cookridge Tower, even though it wasn't!
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Old 31st May 2020, 12:07 am   #51
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I don't know if they are all abandoned, but the microwave network they supported is no longer in use, which is why they no longer have visible horns or dishes. This is also true of the PO/BT/Telecom Tower in London.

They were built in the early 60s, essentially for the Backbone military comms project which transferred air defence radar plots from around the country to UK and Nato command bunkers. Backbone was also used to communicate with various military and government bunkers, who could join the network by emerging from their holes in the ground and inserting a temporary antenna into the microwave beam. Their basic structure was designed to survive a near miss from a nuclear warhead, though obviously they wouldn't be functional without repairs.

(I think this is all declassified now )

Hopefully it is(else I might find a call from goons). But in the late 50's/early 60's the backbone, especially to the States was fed over three routes, before the routes from the south coast started to provide UK- USA comms.
The red phone route( USA White house -Kremlin) was in those days fed over any one of three routes from London to the States , via Oban TAT 1/aka OB/B, a cavern built into a hillside.
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Old 31st May 2020, 12:40 am   #52
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Default Re: BT 'Chiltern' telecom towers

I can still remember this one in north Buckinghamshire from my childhood as we traveled up and down the A40 and later the (new) motorway later.
It also had the horns like the ones that used to be on the post office tower. There is hardly anything on it now.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6622...7i13312!8i6656
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Old 31st May 2020, 2:02 am   #53
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Default Re: BT 'Chiltern' telecom towers

I've passed by that tower near Stokenchurch on the A40 / M40 lots of times over the years - it's about 15 minutes' drive from my house. I noticed the dishes gradually disappearing as time went by. It looks pretty bare now, but I think there are some antennas still in use (possibly mobile phone or DAB?) and there's still a red warning light on top for low-flying aircraft. During the Second World War, a British RAF plane returning from Germany crashed a couple of miles away in Cowleaze Wood. At the crash site there is a small memorial to the crew who were all killed. The area is good for walking and exploring. There's Aston Rowant nature reserve, with far-reaching views of the countryside as well as Cowleaze Wood which has a spectacular natural display of bluebells every year in May.

I assumed that the tower's original purpose was to carry telephone calls. I didn't know they were used for TV or possibly secret military purposes. I realised they were part of a network, as I have seen similar ones in other parts of the country. Purdown in north Bristol is another one that I remember, of a different design. It's highly visible from the M32 motorway when approaching Bristol from the north. Since these towers are highly visible, it would seem rather pointless omitting them from maps. If they really were for military use, they're not exactly a well-kept secret - the enemy could still find them easily and then destroy them.

I presume some of these towers will be demolished eventually when no longer of any use, like the huge cooling towers of Didcot power station, another landmark once visible from this area of the M40.
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Old 31st May 2020, 7:53 am   #54
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Default Re: BT 'Chiltern' telecom towers

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This map was published 1945 and states "Full Revision 1930 with later corrections".
On closer inspection (with higher magnification) I realise that what I mistook for an antenna symbol was, in fact, a "T" (for telephone kiosk) and it was the other side of the A40 anyway. Presumably 1945 was some while before the tower was built.

The earliest map I have showing the tower is 1968:
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Old 31st May 2020, 8:49 am   #55
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Default Re: BT 'Chiltern' telecom towers

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On closer inspection (with higher magnification) I realise that what I mistook for an antenna symbol was, in fact, a "T" (for telephone kiosk) and it was the other side of the A40 anyway. Presumably 1945 was some while before the tower was built.

The earliest map I have showing the tower is 1968:
Built in 1964, so makes sense.
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Old 31st May 2020, 9:16 am   #56
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Thanks for confirming that.
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Old 31st May 2020, 9:48 am   #57
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Default Re: BT 'Chiltern' telecom towers

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I've always been fascinated by the"Chilton" a

Microwave links are secure partly because of their small beam-width,

but in the other hand...
https://mapio.net/pic/p-7866319/
Not secure enough to prevent an excellent university rag week stunt, when the students overcame the link to the Rowridge FM service and managed to broadcast their material for some time!
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Old 31st May 2020, 10:50 am   #58
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Default Re: BT 'Chiltern' telecom towers

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I assumed that the tower's original purpose was to carry telephone calls. I didn't know they were used for TV or possibly secret military purposes.
The Stokenchurch tower was a major node for both civilian and military traffic. It served the large military command bunker at RAF High Wycombe. This was one of the main motivations to build the network in the first place.

For many years there was a dish on the southern corner of the central Oxford telephone exchange which appeared to be working Stokenchurch. Possibly this was some sort of backup circuit, though it could have been for many things. I think it's still there, though presumably out of use.
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Old 31st May 2020, 1:53 pm   #59
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Default Re: BT 'Chiltern' telecom towers

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Microwave links are secure partly because of their small beam-width
I recall an infamous episode where a tower had been built in a very particular position, allegedly so that the spooks of one state could eavesdrop on the governmental communications of another "over the water".
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Old 31st May 2020, 4:45 pm   #60
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Default Re: BT 'Chiltern' telecom towers

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Microwave links are secure partly because of their small beam-width
I recall an infamous episode where a tower had been built in a very particular position, allegedly so that the spooks of one state could eavesdrop on the governmental communications of another "over the water".
Could you mean this ? With more details/links here. I remember it being built as it could be see from my hilltop here in North Wales. Stuck out like a 'sore thumb' on the Wirral some ten miles away.
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