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Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
Hi!
Sorry if this one is a bit off–putting to other members, but as a soldering–iron mishap at work has resulted in me being sent home, with a potentially severe disciplinary sanction from my employer to follow, it set me thinking! We tend to look at the old Radio and TV servicing days with rose–tinted glasses, and I'm as guilty as anyone here in that respect, but I honestly can't resist asking, did the old Radio and TV Assembly Plants and service workshops have disciplinary procedures as we know them today, or was it an age when employees truly were treated so well that such things hardly ever cropped up? Whenever I look at the relatively friendly looking British Lettering in the circuit diagrams of our manuals (available elsewhere on this forum) it gives me a wistful feeling of friendly employers where you were hardly ever "called upstairs" that I don't get from today's Chinese–Puzzle style diagrams! Chris Williams |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
As the current Health and Safety Act came in in 1974, whatever went on before that date has very little relevance. Do you have written procedures at work and did you go through a formal training?
B |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
Hi!
There are no written procedures and the only training was a brief chapter on Electrical Shocks from one of the public domain electronics theory books. We have to provide all our hand tools except a soldering iron and a meter – the accident occured on Tuesday after the bench power had been switched off, and whilst packing away my tools to go (we had been warned that late departure would incur disciplinary proceedings due to c.v. precautions) I must have accidentally knocked my iron out if it's stand and it melted a hole in the lid of the isolated 110V socket at the back of the bench. The damaged socket was immediately replaced by the shift manager and an electrically safety certified colleague and a replacement soldering iron issued to me. Nothing was said about the incident at the time it was noticed next morning. I didn't realize this mishap had happened until next morning when I was shown it by the shift manager. He did acknowledge the power had been correctly turned off, so the mishap happened whilst the iron was cooling anyway. No official guidance on how many or what tools we are to use is provided, each engineer uses their own personal ones! (My previous employer had standard tool–kits with all tools laid in foam which were issued and returned for each shift, and soldering iron stands fixed to a safe place near the left hand bench edges, my current place has neither!). Chris Williams |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
I suspect that the disciplinary procedures back in the day were "moderated" by the strength, or otherwise, of the local trade union. A strong trade union would have ensured this sort of mishap would have been dealt with quietly & reasonably. Sadly accidents happen & these days the blame culture demands that someone is held accountable. Especially harsh as you were being threatened with disciplinary proceedings for not getting out fast enough. Glad that I am no longer working as these antics seem common.
Hope it works out. Phil |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
Ok, so you did not break any rules, but there was an accident with the iron falling from its stand, which they might argue was negligence?
My impression is that sending you home was very harsh. I'm struggling to recall any instance in my working life when someone was sent home. You have to ask, are they just looking for opportunities to get rid of people? B |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
Where I work such an indecent would be marked down as a near miss, I would speak to the workshop health and safety rep who would see if there were any procedures that could prevent danger to me or my colleagues in the future.
It would be all about preventing harm not apportioning blame, if you do something stupid the only negative side is likely to be the leg pulling of your colleagues. The Labs and the Office space is Audited regularly for safety as well as security you can find a little post it note on your screens if you leave your desk without locking your laptop or leaving you boots in the walkway, just a friendly reminder although some repeat offenders have come back to find they have emailed a resignation letter to their line manager if they leave their PC unlocked :dunce: Not a real one but as a reminder what can happen on an unlocked machine. We receive training on everything and if you feel uncomfortable using a piece of equipment you are unfamiliar with you can ask for a tool box talk or formal training depending on the requirements for it's safe use. All PPE and tools are provided and you are audited periodically to ensure it's all up to date and safe to use. Whenever I am working with someone else we can audit each other and check our risk assessments. We have lone working alarms and a very defined process for disciplinary procedures and you are entitled to a mentor or union representative if you find yourself in that position. You have to be pretty damn irresponsible though to go down that route. I often hear Elf and Safety gone mad and it can feel that way a little sometimes. But 2 years ago a friend died falling off a ladder, he was only 2M off the ground and he broke the cardinal rules we wasn't wearing his harness and he didn't maintain 3 points of contact. Quite a price to pay for the 2 minutes it takes to put your harness on. I don't think I would like working where you are Chris. Cheers Mike T |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
My opinion is your treatment was completely unreasonable. It was not a deliberate act but an accident. I would have expected an investigation as to what went wrong and a procedure then discussed and printed copy given as to how to avoid it happening in the future. If you did it again, only then expect trouble.
Mind you, I was once told that using an additional different phase on an adjoining bench to power my covers off live repair equipment was perfectly ok. ( I didn't have enough 13A sockets). The reasoning from our H&S officer was that as I had raised the issue, I was fully aware and therefore there was no risk! Rob |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
I agree with the "learn from mistakes" sentiment in this thread. The very worst should be your "line manager" calling you a twit (as an acknowledgement of your own feelings, not a rebuke), and no paperwork for that either. The safety system worked, bench power off, hence no additional damage/fire etc.. I assume the safety system is there to prevent this type of thing getting worse and I also assume that the company thought this sort of thing may happen and introduced the system.
Accidents happen, they should be lessons as many people have said in the past. Unfortunately some people get a kick out of telling people off. |
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Speaking as a Health and Safety professional (NEBOSH diploma, Grad IOSH until I retired) I would say that in the absence of any written procedures, risk assessments or training your employers are on very dodgy ground disciplining you.
Quite the opposite, had you injured yourself on the soldering iron you would have grounds to sue your employer because of the lack of the said documents and training. Peter |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
A quiet word would have been the appropriate response from your boss.
Martin |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
Flip the problem over and look at it the other way. If they treat people like that and have so many disciplinary offences, is it a place you want to remain working at?
Obviously you don't want to leave under a cloud while this threat is being dangled over you, but you may want to look at other options once things are cleared. It seems that one threat of disciplinary action drives people out of the place before the irons have cooled. Would another one be pressure to keep working right up to the finishing time, leaving zero time for making things fully safe? The lack of written procedures is a big no-no nowadays. Are they making things up as they go along? Where I've worked, I'd have got a comment like "Good job you turned things off properly." David |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
Totally unlike my (early 70's) days in factories - typically the foreman one day came out, gave one of the lads a light punch in the guts and said 'there you go! something early for Xmas from me!'. One beginner made the usual mistake and picked up a soldering iron by the wrong end - all the foreman said in reply to his yell, was 'Well!! you won't be doing that again, will you sunshine!'.
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Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
Chris
I have never seen or heard anything like that where I have worked in 40+ years, the most would be a verbal warning with the potential for a written warning and possible follow up sanctions if it was done again. If it was dangerous or life threatening and in breach of legislation or guidance you could expect an immediate reaction or suspension. I have been a manager in much more dangerous environments than you described and have never treated anyone like that. Looks to me like an excuse for other reasons as suggested by others. |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
The next step could be that they give you a written warning and ask you to sign copy to confirm you have received it. I'm going to guess that there is no staff representation where you work, but ideally, you'd show that letter to someone knowledgeable of such matters who could offer guidance before you sign it.
I once received such a letter from our HR manager, which I totally ignored, and the subject was never mentioned again :shrug:! I'm not recommending that as a course of action. B |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
Hi
We all know the soldering iron could have resulted in a fire but accidents can happen at any time and especially if put under pressure to leave the premises in a hurry. This alone could be grounds for dispute. I know it might sound daft but could the soldering iron have been dislodged from its stand by someone else, also forced to leave in a rush? It seems the company is being overly harsh and appear not to enjoy a good working relationship with their employees. A fair representation from a trade union would in the past have cleared the air. I am not sure I'd like to work for such a business, not very pleasant by the look of things. Regards, Symon |
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Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
Hi!
I am truly grateful for the support and kindness of all the Members who have supported me in this incident. As I said, the purpose of the question was just out of curiosity, since I have long suspected that the "blame culture" and "elf and safety" have been allowed to supervene over impartial and fair decisions! I think Phil (oldtestgear) has answered the question on the head, as my workplace is not unionised (I suspect most of the other engineers are very reluctant to join one out of fear for their jobs), and unfortunately I didn't get round to joining Unite before this mishap occurred. Obviously, a unionised workplace won't save your job if you commit an act of gross misconduct, etc., fighting, theft, etc., or any of the other most serious offences where dismissal would be customarily expected, but they would certainly have reined in the nonsense I've had imposed on me, I'm sure! Chris Williams |
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There's two sides to the story - but it does seem unreasonable and totally over-reacting.
My company would investigate and ask for your help and suggestions as to how to prevent it, on the basis that next time, for someone else, it might be a live soldering iron as staff left their benches for coffee break. |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
this is the sort of treatment I wouldn't even expect to give a naughty schoolboy, let alone a grown-up employee. 'Sent home'. Are they serious? I would move on. Life's too short.
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Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
I asked my then employer if I could order at the company expense, an RCD 13 amp socket outlet. To fit to my workbench.
The answer was "company policy specifically prohibits working on live equipment, therefore you cannot get a shock, therefore you have no need of an RCD." Things have improved a bit since then. |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
You should see the depth of the burn mark in the side of my desoldering and soldering station at work!
I still don't know how the iron escaped from its holder while I was alone in the room and just across the room for a minute or so getting a couple of components. But it has only done it once in over 10 years. I always switch it off when leaving the room. These things do happen very occasionally, which is why you and I take precautions so the consequences are not seriously dangerous. A switched-off soldering iron melting just the lid of a socket made of fire-retardant plastic just once doesn't strike me as serious. I doubt any reasonable person would disagree. |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
Hi!
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Chris Williams |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
I have to agree with everyone else, the way you've been treated (and the way others must feel they're treated if they can't unionise) is bang out of order.
It's the employer's responsibility to make sure that your tools and workplace are as safe as possible, be that idiot proofing them or coming up with procedures to reduce risk. They didn't do it, there was a consequence, their fault. There's been few times in my life where bosses have given me trouble unfairly, and every time I gave them ten times as much back. |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
Have you tried contacting Citizens Advice? They can be surprisingly helpful.
Peter |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
Hi!
Our local branches are closed due to the c.v., but I have contacted the regional office of Unite – ACAS say you're entitled to request informal advice from any trade union even if not specifically a member, so I've done so and await their reply! Chris Williams |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
Your use of the word mishap would suggest that your actions were unintentional and as such you have not committed any offence. Put another way, an accident has occurred. Insurance policies are used as remedies for accidents not legal or forceful behaviour.
That being said, if any such mishaps were to continue possibly by others as well it may suggest that the person associated with it may need review. |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
It could also be argued that the soldering iron stand the company supplied was not fit for purpose, if it's easy to knock over, or knock the iron out of place!
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Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
If the socket lid was on a workbench and in the vicinity of a soldering iron why isn’t it made of metal to prevent this type of accident? Or am I mentally picturing the wrong sort of socket etc.
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Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
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If they sanction you, you could take them to an Employment Tribunal. https://www.gov.uk/employment-tribunals |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
Well it sounds very heavy handed and smells of jobsworth to me .
Maybe they need to do an upto date risk assessment of the environment ? I really think you have been unfairly treated , just a be more careful dont bl...dy do it again would have sufficed. |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
Hi. Does your employer have an approved Safety Management System ( SMS)?
If so what does it have to say about a no blame culture? |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
Does the employer have a high staff turnover, Chris?
It seems just bizarre, the reaction. These days, rights seem to be generally biased towards the employee, and (as for this thread's title), in days past, it was easier to get rid of bad employees than it is today! Now, the onus is on the employer to provide a safe workplace; years ago (before my time) it was much more down to the employee to not be daft, and if they were, then... Out! |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
Apart from a very short spell over forty years ago, my working life has not been spent in anything to do with radio/electronics (though my experience back then was that health and safety didn't exist!).
My work has taken me into lots of different firms for contracts of varying duration and I have seen plenty of the stuff you describe go on. The other element and often of considerable significance is, of course, workplace politics. I've often seen instances where certain people are picked on unfairly, or treated in a different way to others, and indeed I've occasionally been the victim of it myself. The reasons can be many and varied and there is always an element of whether one's face fits. Unfortunate incidents often provide a convenient excuse to achieve other aims. The cunning manager knows how to stay just short of constructive dismissal whilst employing tactics to make life difficult enough for those they want removed. The industry I work in consists of mainly small firms where union representation barely exists and those that are members of a trade union will only use it as a last resort - to assist in a claim for unfair dismissal for example - as once it is known you are a member of a trade union your card is marked. It's astonishing how many more experienced and conscientious people I have seen removed by these tactics. (There are, of course, other more straightforward means of dealing with those who are not very competent.) The situation where you are told to observe two sets of rules which contradict each other is a stock management tactic. The other one is not being informed of procedures so that you can then be pulled up for not doing the job (in someone else's opinion) the correct way. This tactic is as old as time and usually employed as a means of putting people in their place. In my experience, working in places where you have to spend a lot of time 'playing the game' removes energy from doing the job at hand and is never a satisfactory experience. From what I've read of the account the treatment seems unduly harsh. A recent incident at a place I was working resulted in everyone sitting down and deciding what should be done so that it didn't occur again. This usually works in environments where everyone's ability and experience is respected. Sadly, in situations such as you describe you are invariably on a loser. Unless circumstances change the best you can do is bide your time and pick the best moment to find pastures new. |
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Like many have said, the reaction is way over the top for this type of incident. The risk it posed to yourself or anyone else was minimal and the cost of repair would have been in the £10 or less category. It sounds like someone higher up there is trying to make a name for themselves.
Is there someone at your workplace you could talk to, informally for a start about the situation, Maybe your H+S or HR representative or maybe someone higher up the chain. With no risk assessements operating procedures Audit trails ECT. they are on risky ground legally. How long have you worked there and have you witnessed any other unfair behaviour. I presume that the workplace deals in industrial control electronics with repairs down to component level ? Would it be possible to have a bit of an insight in to the company and its services? My second job was working for a security equipment company and I did repairs to component level to very sophisticated cash handling units. I got very good at the job which annoyed my supervisor because he didn't have a clue at what I was doing. I worked in this position for approx. 8 years by which time the equipment was severely life expired and they would not listen to me when I was telling them that the equipment needed new PCBs due to fatigue cycling and were no longer really repairable. I gradually got more fed up and after a particularly nasty threat from my supervisor over some equipment which was returned faulty, I walked out of my repair bay straight to the HR office who knew me as quiet and always keeping my nose clean, and I let them have it rather straight to the point. I was in a particularly severe stressed condition as I knew exactly what I was intending to do which was to never work underneath this supervisor again They gave me a weeks paid leave and paid my remaining holiday leave and I left never to return. This was probably the best move I had ever made as I had told a friend who was a volunteer what I had done. His company were looking for a skilled electro/mechanical engineer to work on resurrecting some old BR shunting locomotives and I was able to start work straight away on considerably better pay, better working conditions and doing something I enjoyed. Christopher Capener |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
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These situations never improve - the only answer is to move on. |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
Chris, doesn't your company have a grievance procedure you could use?
Rob |
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I went through such an experience 25 years ago when a large certain service centre put me through absolute hell. They had a system where engineers were financially penalised for ordering spares. They demanded you complete 30 repairs per week, no matter how difficult or easy they were. They refused to pay me for overtime that I'd done because i hadnt completed 30 repairs. If you asked for anything such as leave to take my wife to Paris for her 30th birthday, they almost made you beg. If you were a field engineer and you couldn't complete all the calls you had to make, then tough, you did them in your own time. In the summer, it was so hot, the sweat was pouring off our faces, there were no windows, no air conditioning (except for the computer room) and when we opened the one door to let some air in, security forced us to keep it closed. Many people left, no one was happy. i was sacked after inadvertently speaking out on a Toshiba training session. it wasn't Toshiba complaining it was another rather nasty colleague who did. Quote:
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Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
Same as it ever was, the "peter principle" is still alive and kicking.
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Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
Hi!
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My friend told me there was a much more serious accident involving a large motor started up without checking it carefully enough and a large shaft fixing key was propelled across the workshop at very high speed and enough force to seriously injure anyone it hit – (fortunately it didn't hit anyone!) As far as I know the employee concerned wasn't penalised for this! I'm only thankful I've been there long enough to gain unfair dismissal rights, and I'll let everyone know the outcome! Thank you everyone, for all your kindness and support! Chris Williams |
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PS!
There is a grievance procedure which both me and my friend have tried (it called the "Ombudsman" scheme) because we felt at the time (and still do!) that this particular manager penalizes us both unfairly in general, and they managed to sweet–talk their way out of it! Chris Williams |
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With reference to post 37 by Michael Maurice, I am pretty sure it is the same company I decided to leave in 1987. I had been quite happy there for many years until the takeover by another company about 18 months before. All was well for a time then working conditions began to drastically change. As said by Michael, weekly targets were increased to a level which I could not keep up with with, and many other things which were changing started to make me feel very unhappy. So I decided to jump before I was pushed. I know I did the right thing as reading several letters in Television Magazine in the months and years afterwards proved this. I soon got another job with a small independent radio & tv shop here in S.E. Birmingham and was much happier.
Alan. |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
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I joined a union after previous employer shenanigans of this nature. Politics aside, it just makes you feel less alone if you have to deal with this kind of corporate aggression. Quote:
I wonder if we're going to be seeing more of this sort of thing. I suspect, economically, things may be about to get even worse for many companies, and they're going to be taking the opportunity to hang any transgressions on anyone to make it easier to get rid of staff should the need arise. Despicable, if true - and all the more reason to join a trade union. You have my sympathy and best wishes for a good outcome. :) |
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The people I've come across in the TV/Radio repair trade have skills beyond a mental database of known problems, they are clear-thinking and can follow a trail of causation.
These are valuable abilities in many other fields. I hope those of you in such bad firms find something much better. Let those bosses see how good they are at diagnosing and fixing faults. Learning what a circuit diagram is, let alone reading one might be too much of an uphill battle. Some firms can't recognise good managers when they meet one, and instead hire and promote people based on aggression. Aggressive people never have the self control to think things through, and the companies never work out what these people cost them. My very best hopes for all in this sort of fix. David |
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If they want to throw the book at you..then you can use a bit of health and safety back on them .ie why was a plastic socket in the vicinity of hot soldering irons? surely it was not 'risk assessed' properly? as it should have been metal shielded as the soldering iron holder is not a perfect design regarding safety.
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Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
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Martin |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
I used it just the once. I had a very senior engineer with me at the meeting with my line manager, and a hr rep. They knew exactly where I was coming from. They were guided by the HR manager, regarding my dispute over pay for a one day holiday. I was ruled against.
I immediately escalated to next level. It was soon agreed my case was proven and my pay was reinstated fully. My "evidence" was the actual law as from UK.gov website!! I had forwarded the link to HR manager before starting grievance procedure to give them an escape route so as not to lose face. Some management just cannot believe that a lesser employee can know exactly what he is talking about. This is what caused my denial of pay in the first place and led to my opening a grievance dispute. Chris, don't give up! Rob |
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Chris, the one thing you have not said is this "Do you want to stay there?" By that, I mean in a paying job at a time when not having it could be a serious problem. If you do want to stay, write down every relevant part of this thread, and put it away in case you need to start a wrongful dismissal claim at a future date. Since you have not admitted to actually knocking the iron over, time to deny that you did. You can cite all the breaches of employment law should that time arise. In the meanwhile, just keep your head down.
In another thread, you mentioned getting some scanning (or similar) done at work. Don't!! You MAY have already had your card marked for something such as that. Keep your wits about you and produce work that is above reproach. During my various careers, I had one company make me redundant after I had sorted all the problems nobody else could fix. Next a small shop went bust, so on to the next one. A most unpleasant place to work. Three years, then I managed to sell my cottage, and escape back to the island. No fun when work places are run by nasties. Les. |
Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
Evening Les!
Yes, perhaps I ought to have added that point! The answer is yes, because I enjoy and take pleasure in the work I do, to the extent of taking pictures of difficult jobs home, or, where scrap items are available, taking the scrap home and "reverse engineering" circuit diagrams from these in my leisure time to help other colleagues! – and returning the scrap afterwards. It isn't so much a case of "do I want to stay there", but my eyes have forced a situation on me where I have to rely on my friend to drive me there, (who works on the bench behind me doing the same work) and I reckon there are virtually no other employers doing this type of work for at least a 50 mile radius, and if I was unlucky enough to lose my job, at 59 that would be it for me, so it's not a case of "do I want to stay there", circumstances mean I'm virtually compelled to and I suspect my manager realises this! Many redundancies in the past have left me with no savings (I have never owned my home because I didn't get a full–time paid job until my 30s and banks wouldn't entertain a mortgage on my circumstances at the time) I could rely on to be able to retire early, my sister says I should but financially there's no chance! Chris Williams |
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The electronics jobs market is getting a bit desperate for people at the moment. I'm getting more than a dozen cold contacts per week. Not bad at 66 years old (though my mental age is a lot younger!). They're mostly from recruitment firms desperate for cannon fodder that fits some spec they've been given, but also from large firms contacting me directly. There may be lots more going on than you've noticed.
It sounds like you are strongly enamoured with the nature of your job, just not with the company. Travel would be needed to somewhere in the same field, right. But you aren't tied to that field. Your skills are applicable in other areas and if you have the dedication and skills to take things home to reverse engineer them in your own time, you could be just the sort of person some firm out ther would be appreciative of. These sorts of bullying firms act to destroy people's confidence in themselves. It makes the job of bullying so much easier. The big shrinkage of electronics with all the consumer stuff manufacturing having gone elsewhere has happened, it is complete. There is some coming back as problems are discovered in operating at such distance (culturally as well as geographically) and there are niche products that don't fit well with Chinese manufacturing ... too little turnover, too much skilled manual input, too specialised. While the exodus was on, skilled electronics engineers were being dumped in hordes. Jobs were short. Universities have now closed many courses, fewer young engineers are being trained. The pendulum has swung the other way and there is a shortage. Recruitment activity has surged in the past couple of years and the small number of students prepared to take on a notoriously difficult subject aren't enough to go round. Keep your head down until the current pandemic is clear, and then start looking. Be careful to not do anything which could be used against you. Find a job that is equally attractive, working for people you like. The current lot are exploiting your reluctance to move. If you seem too settled, you get taken for granted and get treated like crap. I've been in that fix. I was too anchored right up until a change in company direction resulted in all the hardware people being made redundant. It was fun afterwards hearing all the difficulties they ran into unable to do the things I did for them. You only get appreciated after you've gone and by then it's too late. "Hire the best people, then trust them to want to do a good job" A quote from Dave Packard. A hard nosed businessman and a fine humanitarian. Proof they are not mutually exclusive. David |
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I’ve been unfortunate enough to work for a few of these sort of ‘managers’ before, they really need shooting in my opinion!
From what I have read so far, this was purely an accident, and what’s more, there is no evidence that it was you (unless like one of my ex-employers, there are CCTV cameras watching your every move..), or did the manager actually see you knock it over? If so why didn’t he say something straight away?! How do you know it wasn’t actually the manager that knocked it over! Shift the blame onto them, if they want to fight, call HSE and report it as an unsafe working environment! I hope it all works out in your favour! Regards Lloyd |
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