Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
 

It differs from each place, how a manager handles or wants to handle something depends on a few things.

Where I work, that'd be buried somewhere, unless a manager has an axe to grind, or unless someone far higher found out who had a bee in his bonnet about something.

Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
 

Re post 48 Chris. If you have a visual disability are you registered in any way? Whether you are are or not, there is a legal responsibility on the employer to make "appropriate adjustments" in the workplace under the law. It's my guess that this would knock down any allegation of misconduct or negligence from the start! The legislation upon which Employment Tribunals rely is extremely sophisticated and has a strict observance of protocol that I would say is superior to that of the Criminal Courts. For example opposing parties are kept strictly apart and marched into court separately. The bench is comprised of a Senior Judge, a Union Rep and an experienced Industrial Manager. Overall the court will seek fairness to all of course but especially, say, an un or under represented claimant.

I'm not at all recommending you follow that route, it's very difficult and stressful but bear it in mind as a resource you may have. In fact very few employers really understand it. Say very little in meetings except "I will need to think that over" and ask for a written account of what transpired. You should e-mail all your enquiries and say "It's my understanding that .." Don't just rely on notes that can be "lost". E-mail is your friend and hard copy everything! If they drag things out they may lose track of what actually happened. At the end of the day, if you have evidence and they don't, that will be that. Endless discussion [in itself] is just very exhausting and doesn't matter. What can be proven does. Most people tend to say far too much in the panic of the moment and are too trusting of someone [apparently] being nice in them. [It's why Barristers always take their time when asking questions-looking around-significant pauses etc]. They may be hoping to bounce you into something after you've sweated it out over the weekend-the choice of date, after the Bank Holiday, may be significant! They won't be doing any worrying, you can be certain of that-it's just another "problem".

The only sort of sweating you do should be from sun-bathing. Their actions so far look just like incompetence, a diversion of responsibility and/or a hidden agenda. Remain calm. Stay cool8-). The onus is on them to prove any "case" not you:thumbsup:.

Dave W

"If in doubt? Say NOWT" [ Lancashire Saying]

Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
 

Hi!

Yes Dave – my eyesight has been getting gradually worse over the last nine months, which has been diagnosed by my local Optician as "Post Cataract Surgery Opacification", I have had to temporarily give up driving until I can get an Opthalmology Clinic to look at my eyes and get them Lasered, which hopefully should restore reasonable vision!

I had an appointment scheduled for the 9th April but the NHS cancelled it on their own volition, presumably due to c.v. pressures, and I have not heard any more yet.

My manager has been made aware I am waiting eye–surgery.

The boardroom where they expect to hold the meeting is big enough for a colleague, one manager (not the same one who called the meetings) and h.r. will attend by video link.

Chris Williams

Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
 

I get the impression that the work station is used by another shift after you have left.
What needs to be eliminated is the possibility that someone on the next shift caused the problem and said that it was like it at the start of the shift.

Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
 

Not a good idea. If the possibility that someone else moved the iron is eliminated, then the responsibility is back with the OP. Apart from that is it a good idea to pin the blame on someone else?

The onus is on the OP's employers to prove that he was responsible and they've no hope of doing so in the absence of CCTV footage or a confession.

Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
 

The confession (in effect) near the begining of this thread should have been kept private unless it's part of the defence strategy, this is in effect a world wide forum, just Googled Chris disciplinary soldering iron and guess what.

Just sayin'

Lawrence.

Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
 

Lawrence, that is a good point which I thought about myself a couple of days ago.
However look at it from another point of view. They are now aware of all the breaches of H&S and Employment law (correct disciplinary procedures etc.) which we note they have not changed regarding safety aspects. Also, they know Chris is unlikely to be a pushover now, which may well have been their previous assumption. If they had any questions about the line manager, something may have been learned.
Under normal circumstances, it is probably wise not to go too public, but in this case I think there maybe some advantages.
The important thing is for Chris to note all the points made here, and keep a tight rein on anything he says.
Les.

Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
 

Personally I wouldn't work for an outfit like that (who ever they are) disciplinary procedures all sounds a bit too jobsworth to me, couldn't stand being lectured to by some jumped up nobody.

Fortunately it's never happened to me as an employee which came as surprise once when as a 15 year old 5 foot high apprentice being bullied by a senior employee I arranged a meeting between a bottle of Tizer and his teeth, I thought it would be instant sack but instead I was greeted with cheers from the rest of the engineers and a well done from the service manager:thumbsup: The person concerned never bothered me again and left the firm not that long after.

Had the odd run in with jobsworth greasy pole mangers etc when I working as self employed, last one was on a construction site, trying to blame me (and others) for his own failings, basically told him I was quitting there and then, he said I couldn't 'cos I hadn't finished the job (which part of self employed didn't he understand) Hey ho.

So far as Chris goes with the "Inquisition" at least he knows he's twice the man his opponent can ever be.

Lawrence.

Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
 

Hi!

An update on this – I had a disciplinary meeting on this and it was decided that the incident had been an accident, but I should get a "first" written warning for placing my iron stand in a potentially unsafe place.

The suspension has now been officially ended and I have had a telephone interview with the Occupational Health Nurse, whose report has now been sent to my employer.

The report recommends I return to normal duties with a recommendation that a larger screen for me to enter data on, and use the company job system on, and that a newer and better soldering iron stand secured to the bench in a safe place is provided!

I am still on full pay awaiting my employer's response to the O.H. report but the suspension is no longer in force!

Chris Williams

Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
 

Thanks for the update. I'd been wondering how it had gone.

A written warning in your file when there is no evidence of who disturbed the iron... hmmm. I'd want to make sure that particular fact was included.

Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
 

Good result, I wouldn't worry about the warning, these people have to justify their jobs in some way. I assume the warning will expire and you will get written confirmation of this too, more (useless) work for them.

Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
 

Really good to hear this Chris, hopefully the time elapsed meant that someone's hot head had time to cool a little and get things into perspective, and that a few of their peers were able to see reason and mitigate your case in the meantime. With luck, the main outcome will be that whoever has now exposed themselves as a bit of a wally and their card is effectively marked worse than yours. Good luck in the future,

Colin

Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
 

Chris,

This whole situation reeks of a complete lack of proper management.

Every task you do should be risk assessed by a "competent person" - This could even be you - the risk of each task then needs to be graded for severity and likelyhood - any that score highly, normally on a 5x5 scale 1= Low Risk 5= High Risk, and the same thing for likelyhood.

Scores much above 12-15 suggest that the task needs reviewing and potentially adjusting to mitigate the severity or likelyhood.

Critically, there needs to be a record of training, if your employer has not trained you adequately, or they have not for instance used heat proof accessories in the vicinity of your "Hot Work" area then the onus is on them - if you do not have an appointed safety representative (for instance if you are a small company) then the onus falls to the managing director.

Unless there have been circumstances in the past that have called your conduct into question, the issue of a written warning is just not warranted - Your employer has failed to safeguard the health and safety of their workforce by not offering a safe system of work, in this case, adequate time for each employee to secure their workstation and ensure that any sources of heat have cooled, prior to leaving them unattended.

What a strange culture to work under?

Cheers
Sean
Who has to do this stuff on a daily basis......

Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
 

I'm glad to hear that you are no longer suspended, and can return to work soon. :clap:

The 'first' written warning thing is annoying, but, as Merlin says, it will hopefully expire soon (might be worth checking exactly when).

Out of interest, did you get any union help (or help from other sources) or did you negotiate the process yourself?

Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
 

I’m glad this unfortunate matter is now nearing resolution for you Chris, forget it and put it behind you and down to experience. At least you know where you stand in the eyes of the company.
I would seriously consider finding another job, obviously not easy at the moment but whenever the opportunity arises.

Better luck in the future.

Peter

Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
 

To lighten this a bit... I was caught (many moons ago) "'avin a fag" by the MD in the workshop. I got a letter typed by his PA saying "The next time will be your first verbal warning". He was a bit of a bully, but like them all, weak and ineffectual, just brush it off like an annoying insect.

Not that I would kill an insect out of spite, they are wonderful things.

Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
 

Chris, glad it is all over. I have thought about it a few times and wondered about the outcome. I did not realise you were suspended all this time, thought that was originally a one day thing.
Let us just hope the atmosphere has not been too much affected but the episode. Best wishes. Les.

Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
 

Hello Chris

I was wondering how you had got on - looks like the usual games have been played and full time called - useful advice above and not much to add.

I hope you can get some help with your sight soon and that that will give you more options. It's easy to get into a mindset that 'this is all there is' - but, of course, 'they' want you to think that.

Keep well

Nick

Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
 

Hi Chris

I've been in a similar situation at work - due to a particular ***** manger and no fault of my own.

I was asked to 'bring a friend' to a meeting with that manager - but I was ready for him!

Beforehand I asked a friend to consult her employment lawer friend - he said that any company can make-up any sort of internal disciplinary procedure that they like - it might involve you pretending to be a frog and not exceeding 657 red stars - that isn't where employment law cuts in. That cuts in if you are sacked. The law doesn't give a stuff about the internal circus of your company.

If they sack you then external independant people will assess your claim of wrongful dismissal no-one in your company can interfere or bias that. Most HR people will pass wind at the thought of this and loads of internal issues will fizzle out as a result - they are more scared of external assessment than you should be of them. Assuming you didn't stab someone of course.

So when my meeting started the ***** pretended to be having a review of my project. I stopped him immediately and demanded to know what the meeting was about. Spluttering from him as he tried to keep going but I just told him that it was obvious that there was an issue and to stop sodding about. (Round 1 to me). He told me that the project wasn't going fast enough or the right way and that I was to be given a warning. I immediately asked when he had discussed this with me and taken time to correct what he saw as failing performance - he hadn't. I said that that wasn't fair and demanded to know why he thought a bombshell was the right way to go. More spluttering (Round 2 to me). He then stated that he would be reviewing my performance in 6 months time - I told him that he would not and that he would be meeting me every two weeks for the next 6 months in which time he would be coaching me and we would be exploring the issues -an empty gap of 6 months was ridiculous (he had to travel 300 mile to my site if we were to have a one-to-one) (Round 3 to me) We went to the customers site to discuss the project and after he said that we should go to my hotel and discuss the enormous brown envelope full of paper that he had with him, I told him no, as I am now on my own time - more spluttering (Round 4 to me).

Two days later my Director called me in and asked indignantly why I had been discussing the issue with everyone (he was best friend of ****) Apparently the production manager had gone to the MD about it - I didn't know. The whole issue was dropped, they had been 'told' by the MD.

So publicity really helps - if the whole company is talking about it the management have to toe the line. Recording conversations helps - not admissible if all parties don't agree, but again hard for them to lie if they know that you could produce a recording... Keep all emails - In any unminuted discussion send around to loads of people your summing up of the discussion. That will be solid evidence as disagreements would need to be written in response and again other eyes are on them. Doing that condenses informal chats to solid text. I have a friend who was awarded £500k in wrongful dismissal as he could produce emails that told the lie on the manger concerned since the manager had written the emails!

Bit late for this advice now, but I hope it might help others.

Cheers
James

Re: Was there any disciplinary procedures in British R & TV factories?
 

Time to draw the case to a close.