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Old 15th Jul 2017, 7:17 pm   #41
WaveyDipole
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Default Re: Cheap multimeters

Well the GW 8145 was a passing thought. I acquired a bench meter earlier this year and found it useful in the workshop to have something ready on standby to use. Up until then I had also used only handhelds, which as you say, are more convenient. The HP3478A is very nice and has more precision than I need, but the LCD display is sometimes difficult to see under particular lighting conditions. The 8145 has less precision but has an LED display and can handle higher currents. These meters do seem to go quite cheap on eBay although not usually quite this cheap so it is tempting to buy this and sell the HP.

Regarding the Fluke 25, this one is also ex Mod, and has been tested working. I have asked about the fuses.
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Old 15th Jul 2017, 7:45 pm   #42
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I agree about the HP - I have the similar 3468A, and it's not the easiest to read. I've wondered about a backlight mod or similar. Nice meters otherwise, though.
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Old 15th Jul 2017, 8:41 pm   #43
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Originally Posted by G0HZU_JMR View Post
Yes it does seem amazing what you can get for £15 delivered nowadays. For general (low voltage) bench electronics that meter would be fine. My main criticism of it would be the limited frequency range of the true rms feature. This is because I'd want a true rms meter to be flat to at least 5kHz and preferably 20kHz so it easily covers (comms) audio frequencies. But this would put the price up a lot I guess... I think I'd rather have much more bandwidth on the ACV range and lose the (narrowband) true rms capability.

The cheapo terminals are a bit of a let down but I suppose it's because of the price. The gaps in the uA to mA ranges are a concern too. But another meter could be used here instead?

To use Dave's terminology, the Eevblog DMM looks like another 'cheap arse' meter to me but with extra safety features. A bit like putting lots of safety features on a cheap car. Every time you start it up you are still driving a cheap car every day with cheap performance and the benefit will only be gained if you do something daft with it
Yes, I agree that the AC bandwidth could be better, but in fairness a lot of the average-responding meters at this price point are not much better. I understand the RMS conversion is performed in the digital domain with this chipset, so presumably there are limits related to how fast the signal processing runs. Of course, most meters continue to use dedicated "analogue computers" for this function... Those aren't exactly cheap ICs

I've just posted about the current ranges elsewhere, but in summary it's the problem of using the 0.01 ohm 10A shunt for the milliamp range. Of course, that's 10uV/mA, so they are certainly taking advantage of the high sensitivity/resolution of the IC. In an ideal world they could drop the square wave output and use the switch position for mA instead, using the usual 1 ohm shunt. The AN8002 doesn't do uA, but does mA well, so that's an excuse to buy both

I have the EEVBlog Brymen BM235. The mods are cosmetic (plus better leads). IIRC, he might have had a small amount of design input, but the non-EEVBlog BM235 meters are the same electrically as Dave's. It's nice and compact. The biggest problem is the poor display contrast. Dave has published a fix for this (change a SMT resistor - must get around to that), and it's been fixed in production for some time now, but it's why I don't use it as much as I thought I would. I like that it remembers the mode you last used for each of the switch positions, rather than resetting to DC or Ohms or whatever, but as no other meter of mine does that, it sometimes catches me out. Also, very, very occasionally is takes a long time to settle. Overall, I'd recommend it. It's around £100 though, so quite a bit more than these Aneng meters. But it's safe (CAT IV 300V, CAT III 600V, CAT II 1kV), and has been independently tested and verified. Better VFM than a Fluke IMHO. Brymen make some really good meters, but could do with better marketing and distribution...

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Old 15th Jul 2017, 10:09 pm   #44
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Default Re: Cheap multimeters

Having now read all of this thread, Marks review on Goldbourne and Dave's video review I can see the appeal of this meter within the limits of a hobbyists low energy usage. Some 25 years ago and being on a very tight budget, I just about managed to afford my first DMM, which looked something very like the yellow DT830. It did what I needed to do and lasted a few years until the rotary control became worn and I always accepted that as a cheap unit it had its limitations. For a hobbyist on a budget, the ANENG8008 looks like a big leap forward, with true RMS, 9999 count and the resolution which is unprecedented for the price price point, as well as a nice clear display. Yet, having seen Dave's video and teardown, I would also agree with his and other members safety concerns. For example, the soldering (or rather the lack of it) around the 10A shunt was worrying, although perhaps not unexpected given the price point. If it were me, I would be inclined to open mine up and check it over before I used it. If the supplied CATII probes are only suitable for low energy environments, then the probe leads with interchangeable ends would be all the more limited to low voltage low current work. Still within the context of a budget offering, the functionality one now gets for the price point is amazing.

Having said that, my requirements may well go beyond the limitations of this meter so I will not be buying one myself.
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Old 16th Jul 2017, 12:47 am   #45
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I gave up with Maplin ones as the rotary switch on mine was hopelessly unreliable and a DMM is one of the tools you really need to be able to trust. Fluke's last a long time and a good secondhand one will outlast quite a few cheapo's and probably work out cheaper in the long run.
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Old 16th Jul 2017, 1:18 am   #46
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I still have my Maplin Precision Gold meter here and I still reach for it first ahead of all my other meters when doing basic/casual measurements. I'm amazed that the rotary switch hasn't worn out in mine but it still works flawlessly despite over 30 years' regular use. It does have a very sturdy and solid action.The build quality of Maplin meters varies a lot and I can remember researching which meter to buy and I pounced on this one during a sale. It's only a 2000 count meter but it's very well made inside and out and the accuracy spec is quite good. I don't think I've adjusted mine in 20 years or more (apart from the thermocouple) and it still seems to be spot on across the range of voltages I use it for. I did look inside it a while back and the build quality is old school/sturdy and it uses decent resistor networks.

I'd be surprised if the equivalent priced meter of today would last as long as this one. It's the only DMM I've ever bought new. The other DMM I use a lot is an old Fluke 45 bench meter that I got on ebay for about £30. It was a bit yellowed but cleaned up well and it easily covers the audio range on true rms ACV.

However, if I could be a spotty student again (please?) and saw the £15 Aneng meter I would buy it in a heartbeat. It would make a great 'second' meter. I think I'd also be scouring around for a cheap used Fluke meter like my Fluke 45 and I'd probably buy a surplus Fluke H/H meter as well. I'd expect to be able to do all this for less than the cost of the EEVblog meter but it would take some time and patience to achieve it
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Old 16th Jul 2017, 8:46 am   #47
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Yes, the 45 is a good bench meter, but it's more akin to a decent hand-held than a bench meter in terms of performance. In practice I tend to reach for the Fluke 187 on the occasions I need that sort of precision. While the 45 is nicer to use in many regards than the Keithley 2015THD, that one has the extra precision that is typical of a bench DMM.

You did well to get yours for £30. Mine was £78, and I've rarely noticed them for less than £100 in the UK (they're sometimes available for that sort of money from the US, but of course the postage more than offsets that!). Usually they fall in the £150 region, but you can pay a lot more than that for a second-hand 87V, which makes the 45 look like something of a bargain

The EEVBlog BM235 is £105 delivered on Amazon. Once you've got the Aneng, you've only got £90 to find a 45 and a Fluke hand-held...

The cheapest hand-held Fluke I have is the ex-MOD 25 for just over £30. My 79 (series II) was about £50. Both good meters, but not true-RMS. There's a lot of the original 70-series meters out there, but they are getting old now and they do fail eventually.

The even older manually ranging meters are pretty reliable electrically, but the displays often fail. I'll put in an honourable mention for the 8050A, which is a tiny bench meter (often found with the battery option) that is 20,000-count and does RMS, dBm, etc and is often only about £30. Also, the 8060 hand-held has similar functionality and can be found for the same sort of price. Both are great for audio.

Suppose I'd got the 45 for £30, I'd consider the Fluke 101 for about £40. That meter is pretty basic in terms of functionality, but is very safe, as discussed earlier. With the change, I'd buy a better set of test leads for the Aneng. But really, what are the odds of finding the 45 for £30? As I say, you were very lucky with that deal

Incidentally, for anyone who likes the look of the EEVBlog meter, the non-branded BM235 is £86.50 from Amazon. That really is a decent meter for the money.

Regarding the Maplin meters, does anyone know the OEM?
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Old 16th Jul 2017, 9:16 am   #48
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I'm a bit of a Fluke junkie. I have four 8060A, and 8024B and an 87V.

Why so many 8060A? Well I had one job that needed four simultaneously to set up interacting voltages and currents at about 700V. Rather than faff around moving one meter from test point to test point I just bought four. Well actually I bought three NOS and I had an ebay one already with a somewhat flaky display. The 87V was second had and in A1 perfect condition - it is my go-to meter.

I have one of the later 8060A that is only specified as CAT I 300V (The maximum voltage switch is re-labelled 300V on these - but inside it is actually the original 1000V range!) is the lack of physical barriers behind the input sockets, and lack of clearance between circuit traces. But the input protection is pretty bulletproof. The volt/ohms/S has two fusible resistors, four varistors, back to back transistors wired as diodes, and a thermistor. The A has two fuses in series - a 3A 600V HRC and a 2A glass fuse and a diode bridge.

Fluke do not provide the schematic for the 87V, but taking the back off it has a similar level of input protection, but with two HRC fuses.

Craig

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Old 16th Jul 2017, 9:21 am   #49
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Acknowledging the usefulness of the Fluke 8060 for audio, what can I buy for chips that does true rms over the audio bandwidth so I can use it as a sub-standard to calibrate my Leader 186 and sundry PPMs?
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Old 16th Jul 2017, 9:34 am   #50
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Default Re: Cheap multimeters

UT61E is true RMS. BW is enough. Think it's about 100KHz.
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Old 16th Jul 2017, 9:44 am   #51
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Thank you, Mr B. Time to supplement the 30 year old Microntas, methinks...
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Old 16th Jul 2017, 10:45 am   #52
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I think the original Maplin meters were sourced from Atai. They are properly made and very good quality. I've got one here (M5010EC), although its a bit temperamental now, I'll have to have a look inside when I get the chance. Still got the manual with the circuit diag.

I'm not keen on the 8060A; I'm not disputing their quality, or pedigree, I just don't like all those buttons on the side. In those early days, Beckman got it right, and Fluke got it wrong.

Bench meters do have their uses; very high input impedance being one of them. My Fluke 8800A has input impedance of >1000M on lower ranges. These are excellent meters, they can be had pretty cheap, have auto and manual ranging, and a very small footprint; I look on the EEVblog and see these guys with huge bench meters, like the HP ones, and think; why ?
What I really like about the 8800A; is the lovely large, clear 1970s LED displays; bright and easy to see from any angle or across the room. I don't like LCDs on bench meters for the reasons stated aboove. This put me off the HP 3478.
Although watch out for the early ones, as they have batteries for the Ohms ranges.

What puts me off buying anything new, with a budget price tag; is there is very little that is properly made nowadays; everything is value-engineered to within an inch of its life. Cheap tat. Most of the new meters discussed here and on the EEVblog look just that; tat.

If I were on a limited budget, I would carefully select and buy; a second-hand Fluke 77 from Ebay. Mine is over 30 years old and still works perfectly.
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Old 16th Jul 2017, 10:58 am   #53
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UT61E is true RMS. BW is enough. Think it's about 100KHz.
Looks like 10kHz to me

Full audio bandwidth is tricky. As far as Fluke goes, the 8060A is obviously great; the 8050A also does it; as does the 45, 187, 189, 287 and 289. There might be others, but in general, you need to be near the top of the range. Even the 87V is falling away at 20kHz.

I've probably already mentioned that these ANENG meters are specified to 1kHz, and are -3dB at 3kHz. That's a function of the DTM0660 chipset, which is widely used in budget meters that do true-RMS.

The BM235 is only good to a few hundred Hz. That's a shame...

If there's anything that stretches out further than the UT61E, but at that sort of price point, I'm very keen to hear of it.
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Old 16th Jul 2017, 11:17 am   #54
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What puts me off buying anything new, with a budget price tag; is there is very little that is properly made nowadays; everything is value-engineered to within an inch of its life. Cheap tat. Most of the new meters discussed here and on the EEVblog look just that; tat.
I have to sympathise with this view; I'd add that actually, price or brand is no guarantee.

Putting aside the fundamental design, the quality of the soldering and general construction is excellent in my AN8002, but not as good in the AN8008. Presumably these are knocked out in whatever factory will take the work, so the construction might not be consistent.

But that's true of the bigger manufacturers too. I've seen pretty poor soldering in £100+ multimeters in recent times. The country of origin is not really a factor - it's more about the attitude to QC. I will say that having looked inside it earlier today, I'm quite impressed with the soldering of the BM235. Against that, the display window is quite soft and picks up fine scratches easily, so I'm regretting removing the protection film now! How much would harder plastic added to the cost, I wonder? Not something that would make it past the design review today!

The high-impedance mode is available on some hand-helds, though it's often hidden away and if you don't read the manual, you might never discover it. Yes, occasionally very useful.

Some LCDs can be fine, but a lot aren't. My frequency counter is really too deep to have on the bench, but because the display is unreadable when you're below it, it can't go on the deep shelves about the bench. You can't beat a bright red LED readout
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Old 16th Jul 2017, 11:27 am   #55
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Default Re: Cheap multimeters

I am currently using a cheap one I got for £2.00. It's obviously not safe for mains use but does low voltage stuff fine which was all I was doing before I became interested in vintage radios. I should really look at getting another more safe one now. That £2.00 was the best money I ever spent though I have no idea how I managed so long without one. Fluke multimeters seem very expensive to me though, if I can buy a useable one for 2 quid then surely I shouldn't need to spend over 100 pounds more for one that's safer. I'll have a look at the ones linked above.
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Old 16th Jul 2017, 12:28 pm   #56
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Default Re: Cheap multimeters

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What I really like about the 8800A; is the lovely large, clear 1970s LED displays; bright and easy to see from any angle or across the room. I don't like LCDs on bench meters for the reasons stated aboove. This put me off the HP 3478.
I have got a Fluke 8800A too. On mine some idiot has rubbed off the legend from the display with a scouring pad so that it is just plane LED and that is your lot.
I thought it was 100Meg and not 1000Meg.
They are all over the place if the leads are trailing across the bench with nothing connected.
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Old 16th Jul 2017, 2:59 pm   #57
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UT61E is true RMS. BW is enough. Think it's about 100KHz.
Looks like I gained a zero in my brain somewhere!

I just measured my UT61E to actually get a real reading and the 3dB point is 41KHz with a source and termination impedance of 600 ohms at the terminals. It is completely flat from about 5Hz to 20KHz. No warranty on this figure though!

Really I usually use a scope for this though and measure p-p and multiply it by 0.4 in my head as it's close enough

My 3478A *is* good to 100KHz but the AC metering is broken on it. Really need to refurb that.

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Old 16th Jul 2017, 3:09 pm   #58
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There may be compromises on construction and assembly with products at these prices from far far east but I can say that it is very rare to find some of this "cheap tat" that doesn't work properly out of the box, unlike some more local expensive items with poor final inspection and test.
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Old 16th Jul 2017, 3:29 pm   #59
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What puts me off buying anything new, with a budget price tag; is there is very little that is properly made nowadays; everything is value-engineered to within an inch of its life. Cheap tat. Most of the new meters discussed here and on the EEVblog look just that; tat.

If I were on a limited budget, I would carefully select and buy; a second-hand Fluke 77 from Ebay. Mine is over 30 years old and still works perfectly.
Yes, I agree with all of that. My Maplin meter is similar to yours and in its day it was best described as a well featured, well built meter for the advanced hobbyist. It wasn't quite in the professional class but it was built to last. Mine is definitely on borrowed time now because it has seen so much use over the last 30 years but it currently still works as good as ever. I don't think there is a modern equivalent because the meters of today are generally of simpler/cheaper construction.

But I'd still consider the £15 Aneng meter as a cheap second meter for casual low voltage/energy stuff. If it gets dropped and falls apart just buy another one.
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Old 16th Jul 2017, 5:43 pm   #60
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I just measured my UT61E to actually get a real reading and the 3dB point is 41KHz with a source and termination impedance of 600 ohms at the terminals. It is completely flat from about 5Hz to 20KHz. No warranty on this figure though!
That's good to know - thanks
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