Pye Black Box - the versions thread.

[ukcol]

There has been a thread called “PYE BLACK BOX preferred version?” but this is slightly different.

There are a number of models and versions manufactured by PYE that bear the name “Black Box”. At the suggestion of Nickthedentist I have started this thread to help members identify which model and version they have in front of them.

I will start by listing information that is out there and then describe in a separate post detail of one model I have here. I am hoping that other contributors will post information about models they have with pictures and serial numbers etc.

PLEASE STICK TO THE SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD MORE STRICTLY THAN USUAL, please do not talk about faults you have had etc. just give model and version information only, such as turntable and cartridge models and cosmetic differences.

I am hoping that the moderators, depending on how this thread goes, may decide to make it a sticky.


The Early Models.

The information in italics below comes from Trader Sheet 1360 which is available on Paul Stennings service data DVD and as on instant download from the banner at the top right of this page.

__________________________________________________ _______________

Designed as a high-quality table record reproducer, the Pye “Black Box” has been produced in several versions since it was originally marketed in March, 1954. Two early versions are covered in this service sheet, which was prepared from a sample of the Mark 2 version. This may be distinguished from the earlier version by the use of an ultra-linear push-pull output stage.

There are four models in each version.

Model B.B.H. has plain dark cabinet and an auto-changer;
B.B.H.S. is similar but it has a single record player;
B.B.H.C. is like the B.B.H. but is housed in a Chinese lacquered cabinet;
and B.B.H.C.S. is the lacquered model with a single record player.

There is an export version of these models, but it is similar except for a tapping at 100V on the mains transformer primary. With this exception, all those covered are designed to operate from A.C. mains only of 200 – 250V. There are later versions of the Black Box which are not covered by this service sheet.

Release dates and original prices, both versions:

B.B.H., March 1954, £31 0s 1d;
B.B.H.S., September 1954, £29 8s 3d;
B.B.H.C., March 1954, £50 1s 8d;
B.B.H.C.S., September 1954, £48 9s 10d.
Purchase tax extra.

__________________________________________________ _______________

The valve line-up for both versions is:

ECC83, EL42, EL42 and EZ41.

In the earlier version the output valves are strapped as triodes.
These models were originally fitted with a turn-over cartridge designed to play 78s and 33/45 MONO records. Most machines still around have had the cartridge changed to a type suitable for playing stereo records without damage.

The model here is fitted with a BSR UA8 auto-changer, there may have been other changers used.
The single play turntable was manufactured by Collaro, again there may have been others used.

Model BBFM

In 1955 Pye produced a plinth unit which contained an FM tuner designed to receiver the, then new, BBC VHF/FM transmissions. There were only three stations available, Light Programme, Third Program and Home Service. These were selected by a rotary switch and the local oscillator was crystal controlled to prevent tuning drift.

The valve line up is:

ECF80, EF80, EF80, EF80, EF80, ECC83, ECC81 and EF86.

Later Black Box models

Model BB/A

This was a similar looking model to the early versions released in 1958. It employed a different amplifier chassis.

The valve line up is:

ECC82, PCL83, PCL83 and a metal rectifier.

The amplifier employs a rather (over?) complicated feedback system and has been discussed here at length but many claim it is the best sounding of the BBs from its four loudspeakers. The output valves, like the MK2 version of the early models, employs an ultra linear configuration.
The BB/A used a Garrard turntable and a GC8 cartridge. A tropicalized version employed a different cartridge.

Stereo Black Box model G63.

This is a large stereo record player released in 1960. It was similar in size to contemporary radiograms.

The valve line-up is:

ECC83, ECL82, ECL82, ECL82, ECL82 and EZ81.

It was fitted with a Garrad auto-changer and GCE12 cartridge. Some were fitted with a Sonotone 8T4A cartridge. The amplifier delivered 7 watts per channel. There was a MK2 version with minor cosmetic differences to the MK1.

Black Box model 1004

This model was released in 1964 and had a very similar cabinet design to the early BBs released 10 years earlier.
It employed Newmarket transistors and was fitted with a BSR UA15 auto-changer and a Ronette TX88 cartridge.

Black Box stereo system model 1022

This model has the “three piece suite” cabinet arrangement. A central unit with separate left and right hand speaker boxes. It was released in 1971
The 10W per channel amplifier employs Mullard transistors.
The turntable is a BSR P128 single play deck and an SC5M cartridge is fitted.

The above information is definitely incomplete and some of it may be plain wrong. I look forward to the input of others.

[dazzlevision]

Hello,

In case it helps, here are the details of original Pye service sheets (that I have), issued for various Black Box models:


Black Box (The), sheet, 705185 Dec 53

Black Box (The), sheet, 705852 Aug 54

Black Box (The), Mark 2, sheet, 705852 Nov 54

Black Box (The), sheet, 708809

Black Box (The Super), sheet, 070865 Nov 56

Black Box (The), model 1104 (transistorised), sheet.

The six digit numbers are the Pye part number of each service sheet (printed on the sheet).

When I have time, I'll retrieve them from my loft and list the valve line up, turntable type, cartridge fitted, etc.

[ukcol]

A black lacquer version of model B.B.H.

Different from the usual B.B.H. is the black lacquer cabinet.



The B.B.H. usually has a hole in the bottom of the cabinet to allow a patch of light to shine on any table top from the pilot light. This one has a red lens mounted on the front of the cabinet. There is a round "PYE" badge where there is usually a "HiFi" sign. Finally there are two gold strips across the front.



The rest is standard, BSR UA8, serial no. 924376. There are black covers on both transformers which is different to my other B.B.H.

It is possible it is an export version although it doesn't have the 100V mains tapping usually associated with export versions. Edward Huggins has suggested it may be a version for the Irish market. Ireland has a 240V mains system.

[Edward Huggins]

May I politely add to this super thread, the very rare Pye "Super Black Box" of 1956/7 with a Collaro RC456 autochanger, a single ended amp using 2 x EF86 and one U/L EL34 (similar to the Pye "Mozart") feeding two 6.5" long-throw side speakers and one wide dispersion electrostatic across the front.

Does the 1963 Pye/CBS Achoic Model 1005 qualify as well?

[ukcol]

Thanks for mentioning the Super Black Box Edward. I hadn't come across that model before. Some information here.

It sounds a very interesting model with its single ended ultra linear amplifier employing an EL34. Has anyone got the circuit?

I suppose one could argue that the Achoic 1005 is a Pye Black box in all but name.

[Michael Maurice]

The very early versions of the Black Box used a BSR UA6 record deck.

[electrogram]

Earliest version has a BSR UA4 deck

[dazzlevision]

Here is all the available and (what I consider) relevant “Black Box” information extracted from the Pye service sheets that I have:

Black Box (The), sheet, 705185 Dec 53

Covers models: BBH, BBHC (home market, 200-250V, 50 c/s) and
BBE (export market, 110-125V or 200-250V, 50c/s)
ECC83, EL42 x2, EZ41
Single track with tap on volume control
Single Tone control
C7 0.1uF fitted
No primary taps on the output transformer.
Two identical 6.5” full range speakers fitted
No details on the record deck or cartridge fitted.
Black or brown cabinets available.


Black Box (The), sheet, 705852 Aug 54

Covers models: BBH, BBHC, BBHS & BBHCS (home market, 200-250V, 50 c/s)
ECC83, EL42 x2, EZ41
Single track with tap on volume control
Single Tone control
C7 (0.1uF) not fitted
No primary taps on the output transformer.
Two identical 6.5” full range speakers fitted
No details on the record deck or cartridge fitted, other than single or changer versions were fitted.
BBH & BBHC use different styli to BBHS & BBCS (these two models use a “Collaro pickup head”).
Black or brown cabinets available.


Black Box (The), Mark 2, sheet, 705852 Nov 54

Covers models: BBH, BBHC, BBHS & BBHCS (home market, 200-250V, 50 c/s)
ECC83, EL42 x2, EZ41
Two ganged tracks (no taps) on volume control
Single Tone control
Primary taps on the output transformer to feed EL42 screen grids
Two identical 6.5” full range speakers fitted
No details on the record deck or cartridge fitted,
other than single or changer versions were fitted.
BBH & BBHC use different styli to BBHS & BBCS (these two models use a “Collaro pickup head”).
Black or brown cabinets available.


Black Box (The), sheet, 708809

Covers models: BB/A & BBT/A (for operation on 100-110V or 200-250V, 50c/s)
ECC83, PCL83 x2 and a metal rectifier for HT supply
Two ganged tracks (no taps) on volume control
Separate Treble and Bass controls
Primary taps on the output transformer to feed PCL83 screen grids
In later models, C13 and C14 are connected to the centre tap on T2 primary winding.
R30 is Eureka resistance wire, 4.75”, 22swg
Two identical 6.5” speakers and two identical 4” tweeters fitted
RC209 deck with Garrard GC8 crystal cartridge
RC210 deck with Sonotone series 2T ceramic cartridge and M54 head shell


Black Box (The Super), sheet, 070865 Nov 56

Models: HF140, HF141, HF142 and HF143
For operation on 110-120V or 200-250V, 50c/s
EF86 x2, EL34 and EZ81
Looks more modern (like a typical portable record player)
Three front press switches: power, radio input and gram input
Rotary “filter” switches (one at front, one at rear)
“Class A” output stage
6.5” loudspeaker and electrostatic tweeter
HF140: Gold/maroon RC456 deck with “Collaro transcription cartridge” and
brown press buttons
HF141: Gold/maroon RC456 deck with Studio 2 piece arm and
Sonotone 90/80/SC cartridge and brown press buttons
HF142: Cream RC456 deck with “Collaro transcription cartridge” and
red press buttons
HF143: Cream RC456 deck with Studio 2 piece arm and
Sonotone 90/80/SC cartridge and red press buttons


Black Box (The), model 1104 (transistorised), sheet

110, 200, 220 & 240V ac operation
NKT226, NKT224 x3, NKT751, NKT452 x2 and an OA5 (Ge diode)
STC metal rectifier type A63/830SM (LT supply rectifier)
Two ganged tracks (no taps) on volume control
Single tone control
The value of R3 is selected during manufacture (120 or 150 kOhm)
Two identical 15 Ohm loudspeakers fitted (in parallel)
Record deck: BSR UA15 (Fawn), with Ronette TX88 cartridge.


I'll keep the service sheets to hand for a while, in case anyone has specific questions they might be able to provide answers for.

[Edward Huggins]

Dazzle, this is a really great addition!
Re: The "Super Black Box", the "Collaro Transcription Cartridge" is likely to be either the quite rare, 50mV low-output, wide range crystal Studio "P" (plenty of gain in the amp) or the Collaro/Ronette TX88 depending on version.
Set across a corner these were sensational with a really wide sound stage.
Athough only at 6.5" diameter, the 2 side speakers (R&A units I think, certainly in the prototype) were coupled to a very solid, heavy cabinet which had an equally heavy lid. Remember, this is all pre-stereo.

[mm0 dhh]

There's also a pye black box 1022, somewhat different to its predecessors but clearly labelled black box.

[Edward Huggins]

Originally Posted by mm0 dhh

There's also a pye black box 1022, somewhat different to its predecessors but clearly labelled black box.

I remember having a bit of an argument with the lovely John Catchpole (also the Author of the "Pye Book of Audio") who designed this, saying it was not really a Black Box per se as it was a 3 piece unit. The essence of the "Black Box" is that that it's all in the one Box! By this time Pye were fast consuming their remaining legacy and this was the last UK designed and made Pye audio system. Everything after that was Philips and (unconvincingly) badged as Pye.

[dazzlevision]

Originally Posted by Edward Huggins

Dazzle, this is a really great addition!
Re: The "Super Black Box", the "Collaro Transcription Cartridge" is likely to be either the quite rare, 50mV low-output, wide range crystal Studio "P" (plenty of gain in the amp) or the Collaro/Ronette TX88 depending on version.

I've attached some scans of the Super Black Box service sheet that show the set itself and info on stylus replacement, which may help the precise identification of the cartridge(s) used.

[leslie5555]

This thread is great, I love these machines. Anyway I have uploaded a couple of pics, they show the quick visual way of checking if you have a mark one amp or a mark two.
The first photo is a mark one amp this one has 6 caps under the chassis also a single type volume control and TX 1 only has 5 tags

Second is the mark two amp the difference is it only has 5 caps under the chassis and a dual type volume control and TX 1 has 7 tags.

Both amps have the same dual can on top which is 25 and 12 UF and both have the same valve line up being ECC 83 two EL 42 and one EZ 41.

This I think is a very quick and easy way to tell between the Mk 1 and Mk 2 amps, obviously the amp needs to be removed first in order to do this.
I hope this will be of use to someone.

[ukcol]

A picture of the 1004 taken from the Pye manual.




A picture with the lid up from forum member Eckoman.

[Edward Huggins]

The CBS model in the US had an almost identical cabinet. However, there was no reference to any cross-licensing arrangement indicated on the 1004. Later versions used the smaller Philips 6" x 4" twin cone drive units, instead of the 6.5" R&As.

[Ed_Dinning]

Hi Gents, has anyone the circuit of the FM module and also the crystal offsets for the various stations? from the example I have seen it does not appear to be a 10.7 MHz IF.

Thanks, Ed

[suebutcher]

The two main versions of the Stereophonic Black Box are the G63, released circa 1960, and the G63E which was released around 1962. As far as I know they were electrically similar, the most obvious difference being the redesigned badge on the front panel, and being a later machine, the G63E had only the Garrard AT6 turntable fitted, though this was also fitted to late production G63's.

[Synchrodyne]

Originally Posted by Ed_Dinning

Hi Gents, has anyone the circuit of the FM module and also the crystal offsets for the various stations? from the example I have seen it does not appear to be a 10.7 MHz IF.

There is an outline description in the Gordon J. King book "FM Radio Servicing Handbook", 1st edition, excerpt attached.



It looks as if it has a very low IF, 200 kHz, to suit a pulse counting demodulator, with the mixer using the 8th harmonic of the crystal frequencies via a two-stage multiplier.

Cheers,

[Ed_Dinning]

Hi Synchrodyne, thanks for that. I have the book in my library but had not thought to research it.
Would it be worth making this thread a sticky as it has some great reference material.

Ed

[Synchrodyne]

Hi Ed, no problem. It took me a few days to recall exactly where I had seen that information!

The Black Box FM add-on unit was briefly mentioned in WW 1956 July:



The original Black Box record player was noted in WW 1954 February:



And the stereo version was very briefly mentioned in WW 1959 September:




Cheers,