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Old 31st May 2017, 10:36 pm   #21
hamid_1
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Default Re: Anybody recognise this "Noval" car boot find?

Now you mention it, I have a Philips 341A valve radio, made in England, which has an ECH81 valve fitted instead of an ECH42. This appears to be a factory fitted modification - there's a specially printed label inside the set informing of the change. This can be seen on the Radiomuseum page for the model:

http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/philips_341_a341.html

I guess at some point in the 1950s there was a shortage of ECH42 valves and Philips switched to ECH81 very quickly. It's therefore quite possible that a French radio with a very similar valve line-up could also have made the same change, maybe without notice.
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 2:54 pm   #22
Wishiknewmore
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Default Re: Anybody recognise this "Noval" car boot find?

Hello again
Answers to some questions:-
1) It was a even better bargain than you may think, a friend found it a French car boot and bought it for me as a gift! - but I would guess that it was less than 20 euros
2) the base/socket for the ECH81 looks original

I have just opened it up properly, there is "ARENA No 688" printed on the glass scale

Photographs of internals are added below
Any wise words as to the best way to move forward - Replace 'smoothers'? -view on other caps?

Thanks to everyone for help so far

Philip
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Old 1st Jun 2017, 5:19 pm   #23
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Default Re: Anybody recognise this "Noval" car boot find?

Definitely replace the coupling cap to the output valve grid, the deliquesced grommet and those smoothers. After that- get it on a lamp limiter and see what happens! If the magic eye glows nicely green it's a bargain even if nothing else works!
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Old 3rd Jun 2017, 3:43 pm   #24
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Default Re: Anybody recognise this "Noval" car boot find?

I know it must be me,but I am trying to search for the replacement electrolytics for this radio 3 of which are marked 16uF 500v TS 550v TP
Not sure what the TP and TS ,but am assuming VDC and VAC
I am aware that 16uF may not be available and to go for 15uF but it's the voltage ratings
I have tried CPC Farnell, RS,Cricklewood,Mouser and eBay
Part of my problem is intermittent internet but there just doesn't seem to be much that suits
Most of the other caps are rated at 1500v is that playing safe or an absolute requirement?
sorry for naivety of the question
Any suggestions?
Philip
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Old 3rd Jun 2017, 4:18 pm   #25
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Default Re: Anybody recognise this "Noval" car boot find?

Apparently....

TS = Tension de service (translates to operating voltage)

TP = Tension de pointe (translates to peak voltage)

Would have thought that TS is the maximum working voltage and that TP is the maximum voltage that can be applied for short periods.

Lawrence.

Last edited by ms660; 3rd Jun 2017 at 4:38 pm. Reason: correction/addition
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Old 3rd Jun 2017, 5:15 pm   #26
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Default Re: Anybody recognise this "Noval" car boot find?

Would you be able to use half of these or are they to large?http://modulusamplification.com/Capa...-P5519968.aspx They do do a 16uf/16uf 500v but currently show no stock Or could you get away with this?http://modulusamplification.com/Capa...-P1426403.aspx

Last edited by Oldelectronics; 3rd Jun 2017 at 5:26 pm.
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Old 3rd Jun 2017, 7:16 pm   #27
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Default Re: Anybody recognise this "Noval" car boot find?

Thank you oldelectronics,
Your first suggestion is a possibility but I would prefer the last suggestion but I don't know enough to know if I can use a 450v rather than a 500/550v
I suspect not
Philip
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Old 3rd Jun 2017, 11:06 pm   #28
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Default Re: Anybody recognise this "Noval" car boot find?

I would think that would be fine. I can't imagine a typical French set like that would have any more than 300V HT and probably less. Measure the half secondary voltage on the transformer with the rectifier pulled and multiply by 1.42 to get the max peak voltage the capacitor could possibly see.
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Old 4th Jun 2017, 12:59 am   #29
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Default Re: Anybody recognise this "Noval" car boot find?

I have a fairly similar set to yours in my collection, with slightly different knobs fitted and a different looking dial glass. It has the same cabinet, chassis and back panel though. Picked it up in a yard sale back in 2011. Restored it about 5 years ago and its still going strong. The chassis was full of tar filled capacitors in clear plastic tubes. Capacitors were rated in cm, so I had to convert the cm rating into uf and fit the appropriate replacements. I've attempted to attach an image of my set to this post. Hope it shows up ok.

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Thanks,
Peter

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Old 24th Jul 2017, 8:49 pm   #30
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Default Re: Anybody recognise this "Noval" car boot find?

Update
I have just finished recapping this radio, but the results so far are not good.
I powered it up with a lamp limiter with a 60w bulb and it glows brightly....if I remove the GZ41 rectifier it goes dim and the dial lamps and all the other valve heaters glow, if I remove all the other valves and replace the rectifier I am back to the bright lamp limiter
I have checked as well as I can for any shorts, and correct replacements in the right place
Any wise words?

Philip
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Old 24th Jul 2017, 9:07 pm   #31
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Default Re: Anybody recognise this "Noval" car boot find?

Could be a dodgy GZ41.

You've nothing to lose by subbing it temporarily by a couple of 1N4007 silicon rectifiers.

Tack both banded end leads onto the cathode connection on the valve socket, and the other ends one each to the anode connections.

Try again on lamp limiter- if it all behaves, it was the GZ41 or just possibly its heater winding. If it doesn't, there's got to be an HT problem somewhere. If you've recapped, are you certain all electrolytics are the right way round? Marking on modern types tends to be for the negative side, not the positive.

When you find the problem, you'll know why it was a bargain at the "puces" or "vide grenier" where it was found!
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Old 25th Jul 2017, 1:24 am   #32
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Default Re: Anybody recognise this "Noval" car boot find?

That valve line-up does seem quite plausible as an original, bearing in mind the chronology of the Philips noval radio valves. The ECH81 was early, whereas the EF89 (replacing the EF41) and EBC81 (replacing the EBC41) were late. The EL84 was somewhere in the middle. So, a chassis designed in the transitional period would perforce have used the EF41 and EBC41 if these kinds of valves were required. On the other hand, whilst some makers might have then chosen the ECH42 for base uniformity, the ECH81 was improved over the ECH42, so could well have been preferred on technical grounds. And early in the transitional period an EL41 output valve would have been necessary. I am not sure that there was a noval-based “GZ” rectifier, so if this kind were preferred, then the GZ41 was a forced choice.

Some UK makers did this kind of mixing-and-matching with Rimlocks and novals. Pye used an EBC41, amongst an otherwise noval line-up, in its FenMan II, presumably because the EBC81 was not yet available when it was designed. Murphy hung on to the robust 6C9 mixer-oscillator for a model generation or two after swinging to noval valves for other small-signal positions. Ambassador used an EF80 amongst a mainly-Rimlock line-up in its early Viscount model.


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Old 25th Jul 2017, 5:06 am   #33
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Default Re: Anybody recognise this "Noval" car boot find?

Quote:
Some UK makers did this kind of mixing-and-matching with Rimlocks and novals. Pye used an EBC41, amongst an otherwise noval line-up, in its FenMan II, presumably because the EBC81 was not yet available when it was designed. Murphy hung on to the robust 6C9 mixer-oscillator for a model generation or two after swinging to noval valves for other small-signal positions. Ambassador used an EF80 amongst a mainly-Rimlock line-up in its early Viscount model.
Interestingly I have a Pye (P32QTC portable radiogram) that's the reverse. ECH42, EBF80, EL41, EZ40. B8A (Rimlock) everywhere apart from the IF amplifier/detector which is B9A. I guess the B9A base was required to bring out all the electrodes of a double diode pentode. And an Ekco (Mine is the A222 clock radio, same chassis as the U195) with UCH42, UBF80, UL41, UY41. Same idea.
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Old 25th Jul 2017, 5:57 am   #34
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Default Re: Anybody recognise this "Noval" car boot find?

The EBF80 (c. 1949-50) was before its time in the Philips sequence, so as to speak. As you say, the 9-pin base was required in this case, so it was a noval that was a fellow-traveller with the radio Rimlock series. It was quite possibly Philips’ first noval release. When planning the Rimlock series, Philips had originally intended to use the B9G base for any receiving valves that required 9 rather than 8 pinouts. In this vein, the existent ECH21 was also sometimes cast as a Rimlock fellow-traveller. But by the time that the EBF80 was needed, the noval base had arrived and so it was the logical choice. Philips transition from Rimlock to noval began in earnest with its definitive TV valve series (EF80, ECL80, etc.) and was followed by the first clutch of FM-AM radio valves (ECH81, EABC80, etc.) The enneode (renamed, rather non-sequiturially, by Mullard as a nonode) both a radio and TV valve, was on the cusp, and the original EQ40 quickly became the EQ80 very early on.

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Old 25th Jul 2017, 7:37 pm   #35
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Default Re: Anybody recognise this "Noval" car boot find?

Hello again
Chris, I will take up your suggestions of the two diodes, none currently on hand but I will order a few.
In the meantime and at the risk of embarrassing myself and exposing my ignorance I have just been pondering and measuring the GZ41 using the DMM with the following results
Continuity between pins 1 and 6, 2 and 7, 2 and 8 also 7 and 8
Does this seem correct?

For completeness the connections to the valve base are to 2 and 6 Anode to transformer, cathode pin 7 is connected to heater pin 8 then to the 5v winding and heater pin 1 to the other 5v winding

Also I have suspicions that my current symptoms may be down to me somehow, but I have checked the electrolytics and all the negatives go to the chassis and that's the way it seems on circuits for sets with similar valve line ups( and the way I believe the previous ones were in)
Yours confused
Philip
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Old 25th Jul 2017, 7:56 pm   #36
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Default Re: Anybody recognise this "Noval" car boot find?

Something wrong there then, like a short or something, do actual resistance measurements between those same pins but on the valve socket ie: valve socket tags 1&6, 2&7, 2&8, 7&8, first with the rectifier fitted and then with the rectifier removed.

Post the results.

Lawrence.

Last edited by ms660; 25th Jul 2017 at 8:01 pm.
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Old 25th Jul 2017, 9:01 pm   #37
Wishiknewmore
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Default Re: Anybody recognise this "Noval" car boot find?

Lawrence
Readings
With rectifier in.(200ohm range) 1&6 0.6 2&7 2.7 2&8 0.7 7&8 0.2
With rectifier out (200Mohm range)1&6 1.6 2&7 1.1 2&8 1.2 7&8 1.1
I have left it as read on the meter I can get my zeros mixed up
Many thanks
Philip
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Old 25th Jul 2017, 9:19 pm   #38
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Default Re: Anybody recognise this "Noval" car boot find?

The readings with the rectifier out, can you do them with the 200 ohm range selected.

Lawrence.
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Old 25th Jul 2017, 9:29 pm   #39
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Default Re: Anybody recognise this "Noval" car boot find?

Gorgeous, 'different' looking set, nice find!
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Old 25th Jul 2017, 9:45 pm   #40
Wishiknewmore
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Default Re: Anybody recognise this "Noval" car boot find?

Lawerence
As read set at 200
1&6 = 1
2&7 = 1
2&8 = 1
7&8 = 0.2
Hope this makes sense
Thanks
Philip
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