UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio and TV Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > General Vintage Technology > General Vintage Technology Discussions

Notices

General Vintage Technology Discussions For general discussions about vintage radio and other vintage electronics etc.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 29th Mar 2017, 9:33 am   #1
MrBungle
Dekatron
 
MrBungle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 3,687
Default I'm rather impressed with Philips - where did they learn to design like they did?

A positive comment for once from me as a regular grumpus...

I've just completed a repair on my PM2524 multimeter. The zero offset had drifted. It turned out to be an out of tolerance resistor. I'm going to be honest; it took me about 5 minutes to find it thanks to the wonderful documentation.

I've repaired a huge number of things over the years and I am never failed to be impressed by the sheer consistency and quality of engineering that came from Philips in the 1970-1990 era. I have found nothing that matches it yet. Some highlights I have found:

1. The schematics are all drawn up neatly and consistently and make sense. Someone put some time into making things carefully obvious.
2. The ECNs are all written up neatly and consistently and make sense.
3. Every transistor that Philips shipped in this era is printed on the top (!) with the part number.
4. The components are very high quality and you can still most of original parts today via Vishay/BC components and CVC for some of the semiconductors.
5. All the designs are clearly intended to be easy to debug in some way. For example, it took me 5 minutes to work out how to bring the PM2524 up on a bench supply rather than the mains. Same with my PM3217.
6. There are no magic black boxes (Tek I'm looking at you) that do all sorts of things and are completely impossible to obtain. Everything is standard parts.
7. The massive insistence on picking Pro-Electron labelled parts is wonderful. some 1N series devices for example are nigh on impossible to find data on.
8. None of the insides look like a pimp has designed it (HP+Tek like to cover everything in gold).

Now I had to do a repair recently on my Agilent E3630A which is a not too old power supply. The opposite of the above was true. The SMM was difficult to get hold of, it uses impossible to obtain ASICs in the metering, the transformer is completely impossible to debug as it's soldered to the main board, the X2 capacitors are a completely odd part that comes from only one vendor with that pitch (and that's RIFA - die!). The whole thing is just yuck.

Thurlby Thandar/TTi come a close second to Philips as well.

So much better than the stuff from the other side of the pond from experience I've had from Tektronix and Hewlett Packard/Agilent.

Ultimately I'd love to find out where people learned design and engineering of this class? Books, courses, information. Anything appreciated. We did absolutely nothing of the sort when I did electrical engineering at university.
MrBungle is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2017, 9:57 am   #2
ParcGwyn
Hexode
 
ParcGwyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Aberystwyth, Wales, UK.
Posts: 358
Default Re: I'm rather impressed with Philips - where did they learn to design like they did?

I agree with your comments about Philips, I had a resistor go high value in the x-amplifier of my PM3208 oscilloscope, the circuit diagram was easy to follow, the circuit boards were easily accessible, build quality good and the fault was soon traced.


Dave

GW7ONS
ParcGwyn is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2017, 9:58 am   #3
Mooly
Octode
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Lancashire, UK.
Posts: 1,349
Default Re: I'm rather impressed with Philips - where did they learn to design like they did?

Philips were always a variable quantity to me. Sure, some of the stuff is terrific, and the full paper manuals are a joy to use (although many techs disliked them).

Some of their consumer products left much to be desired though, and their 1980's and 90's attempts at SMPS seemed to be designed to the 'bag of bits thrown into the air and lets see how they land' principle together with a use of zeners and small signal diodes suggesting they had warehouses full of such parts and that they were under instruction to use them all as quickly as possible.
Mooly is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2017, 10:06 am   #4
TonyDuell
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Biggin Hill, London, UK.
Posts: 5,188
Default Re: I'm rather impressed with Philips - where did they learn to design like they did?

I am something of a Philips-fanatic. Remember that Philips was a very large company which made a vast range of products.

My experience suggest that their 'industrial' product -- test gear, computer (yes, Philips made their own range of computers, I have several P800 series minicomputers in working condition) etc -- is excellent. Well designed (if somewhat unconventional), well documented, easy to repair and reliable.

Their consumer stuff is variable. Some good, some obviously built down to a price. I love their own-format VCRs (N1500, VR2020. etc), much less their VHS machines. Some of their tape recorders, while certainly not top quality, were interesting machines.
TonyDuell is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2017, 10:21 am   #5
MrBungle
Dekatron
 
MrBungle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 3,687
Default Re: I'm rather impressed with Philips - where did they learn to design like they did?

I have less experience with their consumer stuff, mainly CD players, but they were pretty good from what I remember.

My current CD player, a Technics SL-PG490 is basically Philips as well
MrBungle is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2017, 10:59 am   #6
mhennessy
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Evesham, Worcestershire, UK.
Posts: 4,241
Default Re: I'm rather impressed with Philips - where did they learn to design like they did?

I've always spoken highly of Philips test gear. For sheer ease of use, especially for beginners, the PM3215 takes some beating.

I'd have to do a tally to be sure, but I think I've got more Philips test gear than anything else. And almost nothing from Tek

They often used custom ICs and hybrid modules on their more high-end gear, but they do seem to be very reliable. Their main problem is plastics - a lot of it goes brittle. And some the later test gear was rather too reliant on it.

Of course, Philips T&M got bought by Fluke, so there's a lot of Fluke-branded gear that is actually Philips underneath.

The consumer stuff was also good, but often "quirky". User interfaces - even on something as simple as a CD player - always seemed to be at odds with everyone else. I'm not saying they were bad, but there's something to be said for following the herd in that segment. Styling was always "individual". Again, plastics were sometimes a problem. But performance was always good, and lots of manufacturers based their CD players (for example) on Philips mechanisms and chipsets.

In terms of circuit designs, I always think of the Philips K30 compared to the Thorn TX10 - sets I studied intensively instead of concentrating on my A-levels at the time. In the TX10, most of the circuitry is little more than a straight implementation of the Mullard datasheet, whereas the K30 was really quite different in the details. It's almost as if the designers at Philips had some sort of "inside knowledge" of the ICs used (note the smiley!)

Their designers seemed to delight in imaginative circuit designs, which often gave good results and moved them as a company forward. I suppose that occasional unreliability is a cost of innovation, but in fairness, the supplies were always reliable once the official repair kits had been used IME.
mhennessy is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2017, 12:07 pm   #7
Hartley118
Nonode
 
Hartley118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Cambridge, Cambs. UK.
Posts: 2,196
Default Re: I'm rather impressed with Philips - where did they learn to design like they did?

The remarkable achievement of Philips is that they are still alive, well and reputable after well over a century. Even today, which is the 'go to' reliable brand of LED lamp? Philips, just like in 1891, but then it had a carbon filament. Very few companies can boast that longevity.

In my youth, I remember being rather impressed by the sensitivity of my small 1930s Philips TRF radio - I guess it was a 'Superinductance' model - typically different from most other manufacturers who were building superhets at the time. Regrettably I didn't then show it the respect it was due: I converted it intto a guitar amp and sold it to a friend!

I was bemused though by the eccentricity of pre-war Philips sets - and I still am - with their curious black resistors of values different from anyone else's. And ISTR they were labelled to 3 significant figures. I still don't know why

To respond to Mr Bungle's original question, I guess that Philips' high standard of documentation derives from being a big company with professional Technical Publications departments following clearly specified internal standards. I'm sure that being a Philips Technical Author is a respected career in its own right rather than that irritating afterthought role that documentation has in many smaller companies.

The excellent question 'Ultimately I'd love to find out where people learned design and engineering of this class? Books, courses, information. Anything appreciated. We did absolutely nothing of the sort when I did electrical engineering at university.' is relevant to engineers in many companies. The company's body of technical experience is crucial, summarised as 'This is how we do things around here'. Any designer departing from an approach known to work would soon be put right by his/her supervisor or an experienced draughtsman or production engineer.

The remarkable Philips achievement has been to maintain a high level of innovation in parallel with valuing its body of technical knowledge. Not only did Philips invent the CD, they came up with smaller relevant component innovations such as the TDA1034 IC for professional audio, combining low noise with the ability to drive a 600 ohm load. A brief anecdote: I recall participating in a seminal discussion in 1976 between Alex Balster in Philips studios design lab and Rupert Neve in our Cambridge lab - we were debating whether the TDA1034 (now NE5534) was ready to replace discrete circuitry in professional audio. We decided to go ahead with the new Philips IC and didn't regret it.

Martin
__________________
BVWS Member
Hartley118 is online now  
Old 29th Mar 2017, 12:08 pm   #8
Radio Wrangler
Moderator
 
Radio Wrangler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Fife, Scotland, UK.
Posts: 22,798
Default Re: I'm rather impressed with Philips - where did they learn to design like they did?

To be fair, you need to compare products of the same era. Go back to the period of those Philips instruments and the HP stuff was nicely repairable with beautifully written manuals. Go for ultra high performance stuff and everyone was forced into custom hybrids, though.

David
__________________
Can't afford the volcanic island yet, but the plans for my monorail and the goons' uniforms are done
Radio Wrangler is online now  
Old 29th Mar 2017, 12:46 pm   #9
jamesperrett
Octode
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Liss, Hampshire, UK.
Posts: 1,870
Default Re: I'm rather impressed with Philips - where did they learn to design like they did?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley118 View Post
A brief anecdote: I recall participating in a seminal discussion in 1976 between Alex Balster in Philips studios design lab and Rupert Neve in our Cambridge lab - we were debating whether the TDA1034 (now NE5534) was ready to replace discrete circuitry in professional audio. We decided to go ahead with the new Philips IC and didn't regret it.
Interesting - I own a couple of Neve 33122 modules. One is the standard version with a discrete first stage while the other is the 'a' version with the TDA1034. I haven't used them for a while but when I did, I found they could be used interchangeably.

As a youngster I always liked Philips consumer stuff - the styling was different and it usually worked well although their use of plastic for almost everything meant that things weren't as rugged as other manufacturers. I've yet to find another reel to reel that works as well at low speed as my N4515.
jamesperrett is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2017, 1:30 pm   #10
dazzlevision
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Near Swindon, North Wiltshire, UK.
Posts: 3,595
Default Re: I'm rather impressed with Philips - where did they learn to design like they did?

I agree with Mr Bungle's comments about Philips test gear and the service/user manuals, of which I have several examples (made in the 1970s and 80s).

I also like the house style of the user controls.

IIRC, Philips T&M was largely designed and made in Germany (Hamburg?), rather than the Netherlands. At least, that is what is marked on all my 1970/80s kit.
dazzlevision is online now  
Old 29th Mar 2017, 1:49 pm   #11
turretslug
Dekatron
 
turretslug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Surrey, UK.
Posts: 4,385
Default Re: I'm rather impressed with Philips - where did they learn to design like they did?

Another Philips test gear fan here. They seemed to have a knack of achieving efficient, economical elegance of electronic design- sometimes, you can look under the lid and think, does it really do all that with a handful of BCxxx, with the answer being, it certainly does and does it well. The '60s/early '70s stuff is very nicely made (sometimes too nicely!) from the mechanical point of view, though the extensive use of bespoke castings and extrusions might make repairing an abused one more challenging. After that, the bean-counters seemed to get more of a grip, the PM3217 here being a good enough scope electronically but rather far down the slope from the construction sturdiness point of view.

The consumer stuff was a bit more of a mixed bag, but still displaying ingenuity and fresh thinking. Consider that not too many other companies managed to encompass such a wide span of the market- how many HP or R + S domestic TVs and radios have you encountered?
turretslug is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2017, 1:53 pm   #12
mhennessy
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Evesham, Worcestershire, UK.
Posts: 4,241
Default Re: I'm rather impressed with Philips - where did they learn to design like they did?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley118 View Post
...such as the TDA1034 IC for professional audio, combining low noise with the ability to drive a 600 ohm load. A brief anecdote: I recall participating in a seminal discussion in 1976 between Alex Balster in Philips studios design lab and Rupert Neve in our Cambridge lab - we were debating whether the TDA1034 (now NE5534) was ready to replace discrete circuitry in professional audio. We decided to go ahead with the new Philips IC and didn't regret it.

Martin
It's quite hard to work out where the NE5534 actually comes from...

Some say that Philips released the TDA1034 first, and Signetics developed it further into the NE5534. Others say that Rubert Neve had a hand in the design of the NE5534, and the TDA1034 is simply a re-branded version of the same silicon. There are many more variations on those themes, but I've just to see an authoritative write-up.

Of course, Philips bought Signetics in 1975, so the distinction is perhaps somewhat moot. But whether it's a Philips or Signetics (or part-Neve) design is strangely unclear. It's possible that your memories are the best information to surface so far - can you add any more?

Cheers,

Mark
mhennessy is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2017, 2:01 pm   #13
mhennessy
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Evesham, Worcestershire, UK.
Posts: 4,241
Default Re: I'm rather impressed with Philips - where did they learn to design like they did?

Quote:
Originally Posted by turretslug View Post
After that, the bean-counters seemed to get more of a grip, the PM3217 here being a good enough scope electronically but rather far down the slope from the construction sturdiness point of view.
I know the PM3217 well, and would suggest that it's one of the good ones - though perhaps one of the last. Internally and externally, it's all metal, and they are very rugged indeed. After that, models like the PM3055 came along, and while they were superb technically, they feature almost no metal content in their construction, with predictable results. At the same time, they moved over to SMT construction in a big way. As a result, I manage to leave those ones in the WEEE skip

Having restored a few of the PM321x series recently, my only criticism would be about the lack of silk screen on the PCBs. The diagrams in the manual are excellent, so locating components is no problem, but it would definitely be quicker with the silk screen.

The only thing that kills one of these is the PSU transformer - they can develop a breakdown between windings, which is a problem because the heater winding needs to sit down at -1.5kV.

The low PDA is sometimes a limitation. If only Philips had produced a version with the CRT from the PM3055 range...
mhennessy is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2017, 2:10 pm   #14
MrBungle
Dekatron
 
MrBungle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 3,687
Default Re: I'm rather impressed with Philips - where did they learn to design like they did?

I'm a PM3217 owner. The thing is amazingly well built. It's really nice to work on as well, unless you have to replace the latching changeover switches, but they're difficult on anything I have found. I'd still go for a PM3055 if I saw one to be honest; I think only the display interface is SMD in them. I'm looking out for a second PM3217 or even a PM3215 to have around as a parts mule

Incidentally I just turned my Tek 475 on about 10 minutes to go and the damn thing has blown the fan suddenly. This was after my HP3312A deciding to lose all symmetry this morning out of the blue which prompted me to look fondly back at the old Philips function generator I had and therefore this thread emerged.

So from this morning's bench I had:

Tek 475, HP3312A, Agilent E3630A

After failures and some hatred, these have been swapped out for:

PM3217, TG210 and a couple of TTi PL310's

I always end up using these when I want to get something done, because they seem to unconditionally work when I want them too not when they feel like it.

American stuff will be repaired and chucked on ebay. Had enough of it. I'll see if I can find some more Philips and Thandar stuff at Kempton and Dunstable!
MrBungle is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2017, 2:23 pm   #15
Hartley118
Nonode
 
Hartley118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Cambridge, Cambs. UK.
Posts: 2,196
Default Re: I'm rather impressed with Philips - where did they learn to design like they did?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhennessy View Post
It's quite hard to work out where the NE5534 actually comes from...

Some say that Philips released the TDA1034 first, and Signetics developed it further into the NE5534. Others say that Rubert Neve had a hand in the design of the NE5534, and the TDA1034 is simply a re-branded version of the same silicon. There are many more variations on those themes, but I've just to see an authoritative write-up.

Of course, Philips bought Signetics in 1975, so the distinction is perhaps somewhat moot. But whether it's a Philips or Signetics (or part-Neve) design is strangely unclear. It's possible that your memories are the best information to surface so far - can you add any more?
Without drifting too far OT........

There's no evidence that Rupert had any involvement at all in the design of the original Mullard (Philips) TDA 1034. Alex Balster of Philips Studios most likely did and Rupert was a friend of his. In fact, Rupert's preference at that time (1976) was for discrete component amplifier building blocks, preferably Class A, though by then he personally was not involved in circuit design for the Neve company.

Rupert by then had become a consultant to the company and was effectively a member of my design team for the 5422 'Suitcase Mixer'. It was very helpful that he was able to get the inside track on the TDA1034 from Alex Balster of Philips because the chip was ideal for our new compact 5422 design and subsequent variants. Having been proven in the 5422, it was later incorporated into the larger Neve consoles in the BA638 and BA640 amplifier modules. Any rumoured Neve connection was probably because we were an early adopter.

By then, Signetics was part of Philips, and, AFAIK the NE5534 was at that time identical to the TDA1034.

Martin
__________________
BVWS Member
Hartley118 is online now  
Old 29th Mar 2017, 4:04 pm   #16
mhennessy
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Evesham, Worcestershire, UK.
Posts: 4,241
Default Re: I'm rather impressed with Philips - where did they learn to design like they did?

Thanks for that, Martin - really useful to get it on the record. Virtually everything else out there is just too far from the source to be credible.

Cheers,

Mark
mhennessy is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2017, 4:07 pm   #17
mhennessy
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Evesham, Worcestershire, UK.
Posts: 4,241
Default Re: I'm rather impressed with Philips - where did they learn to design like they did?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBungle View Post
I'm looking out for a second PM3217 or even a PM3215 to have around as a parts mule
Let me know if you need anything for these - we still have old stocks of parts here. It would be a shame to break one for parts; I've yet to come across one that's beyond redemption.
mhennessy is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2017, 5:17 am   #18
Maarten
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Haarlem, Netherlands
Posts: 4,184
Default Re: I'm rather impressed with Philips - where did they learn to design like they did?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzlevision View Post
I agree with Mr Bungle's comments about Philips test gear and the service/user manuals, of which I have several examples (made in the 1970s and 80s).

I also like the house style of the user controls.

IIRC, Philips T&M was largely designed and made in Germany (Hamburg?), rather than the Netherlands. At least, that is what is marked on all my 1970/80s kit.
Every branch/country had its own specialism. Some of those at Hamburg Lockstedt and possibly Berlin but a lot was actually done in The Netherlands (scopes, multimeters, bench power supplies -> Fluke), Belgium (industrial power supplies -> Cherokee, possibly other equipment and certainly parts and subassemblies by MBLE), Sweden (counters and timers -> Pendulum), Denmark (TV test gear -> PTV) and various unidentified factories in a.o. the UK and France. The Indian adventure wasn't too succesfull.

I'll respond to various other posts later.

Last edited by Maarten; 31st Mar 2017 at 5:29 am.
Maarten is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2017, 8:00 am   #19
dazzlevision
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Near Swindon, North Wiltshire, UK.
Posts: 3,595
Default Re: I'm rather impressed with Philips - where did they learn to design like they did?

Agreed.

My Philips "PMxxxx" test gear is TV pattern generators (not to broadcast standard, so not made in Copenhagen), FM stereo generator and RF signal generators/sweepers, all made in W Germany.

I also have some "Philips Service" test gear, prefixed SBC, SIM, SMT and UTS. This was all obtained from CES/Philips Service in the UK, which I think was designed and made elsewhere (Philips Consumer Electronics centres).

Where I used to work, we also had a Philips PM5646 TV pattern generator, which was a rebadged Grundig unit (made during the period in which Philips had a major interest in Grundig).

Last edited by dazzlevision; 31st Mar 2017 at 8:15 am. Reason: Added text.
dazzlevision is online now  
Old 31st Mar 2017, 10:34 am   #20
MrBungle
Dekatron
 
MrBungle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 3,687
Default Re: I'm rather impressed with Philips - where did they learn to design like they did?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhennessy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBungle View Post
I'm looking out for a second PM3217 or even a PM3215 to have around as a parts mule
Let me know if you need anything for these - we still have old stocks of parts here. It would be a shame to break one for parts; I've yet to come across one that's beyond redemption.
Thanks for the offer - hopefully I will not need any parts. I keep finding this with Philips equipment. All mine was "dead and broken" when received but wasn't!

Spent two hours repairing my Tek 475 last night. Blown up 2n2907 in the fan controller. Absolutely no reason it should have happened!

Incidentally does anyone know if Philips did a 100MHz bandwidth unit in the same form factor as the PM321x series? I'm hitting the 7ns rise time on this unit regularly and have to keep the Tek around now for those jobs.
MrBungle is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:16 am.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2023, Paul Stenning.