UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio and TV Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > Specific Vintage Equipment > Other Vintage Household Electrical or Electromechanical Items

Notices

Other Vintage Household Electrical or Electromechanical Items For discussions about other vintage (over 25 years old) electrical and electromechanical household items. See the sticky thread for details.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 6th Feb 2017, 1:18 pm   #21
amar56891
Retired Dormant Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 15
Default Re: Old sewing machine motor.

thank you will connect it all up and upload some photos before I try it
amar56891 is offline  
Old 6th Feb 2017, 1:19 pm   #22
Herald1360
Dekatron
 
Herald1360's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Leominster, Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,527
Default Re: Old sewing machine motor.

It may not be quite straightforward....

Does your machine have an earth connection (three wire mains lead) or not (two wire mains lead)?

If not, the three wire suppressor can't be connected up simply since one of its leads goes to earth normally.

How exactly was the old suppressor connected? 4 wires rather suggests two in from the supply and two out to the motor but some other variation may be possible.
__________________
....__________
....|____||__|__\_____
.=.| _---\__|__|_---_|.
.........O..Chris....O
Herald1360 is offline  
Old 6th Feb 2017, 1:32 pm   #23
amar56891
Retired Dormant Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 15
Default Re: Old sewing machine motor.

hello yes that is correct there is 2 wires from the mains that connect to the suppressor and2 from the suppressor to the inside of the motor there is a black wire that comes from inside the motor and bolts to the body of the motor and suppressor but the mail electric cable is 2 wires not 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Station X View Post
Red and black wires to the motor terminals. Green/Yellow wire to the motor's case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herald1360 View Post
It may not be quite straightforward....

Does your machine have an earth connection (three wire mains lead) or not (two wire mains lead)?

If not, the three wire suppressor can't be connected up simply since one of its leads goes to earth normally.

How exactly was the old suppressor connected? 4 wires rather suggests two in from the supply and two out to the motor but some other variation may be possible.
amar56891 is offline  
Old 6th Feb 2017, 1:42 pm   #24
amar56891
Retired Dormant Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 15
Default Re: Old sewing machine motor.

Would any of these be any good.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HA25L-250V...cAAMXQeW5Taygh

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AC2A6-2-AC...mYl5JVNNQE0m3w
amar56891 is offline  
Old 6th Feb 2017, 2:43 pm   #25
Station X
Moderator
 
Station X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Ipswich, Suffolk, IP4, UK.
Posts: 21,192
Default Re: Old sewing machine motor.

The first one requires an earth connection. The second one doesn't.

Can you change the existing two core wiring for three core? It would be safer.

You also need to consider whether any new suppressor will physically fit.
__________________
Graham. Forum Moderator

Reach for your meter before you reach for your soldering iron.
Station X is online now  
Old 6th Feb 2017, 4:14 pm   #26
paulsherwin
Moderator
 
paulsherwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 27,788
Default Re: Old sewing machine motor.

The sparking may be nothing to do with the lack of a capacitor. All motors of this type spark to some extent. The brushes may be worn, and/or the commutator may be worn or dirty. This is quite likely if the motor has seen plenty of use and never been serviced.

See here for general guidance, though your motor won't be exactly the same.
paulsherwin is online now  
Old 6th Feb 2017, 4:47 pm   #27
amar56891
Retired Dormant Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 15
Default Re: Old sewing machine motor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Station X View Post
The first one requires an earth connection. The second one doesn't.

Can you change the existing two core wiring for three core? It would be safer.

You also need to consider whether any new suppressor will physically fit.
thanks ive checked the wire its a 3 core but only from the mail plug to the foot peddle to change it all to a 3 core I would need to change the connector on back of the machine also the connector from the foot peddle
amar56891 is offline  
Old 6th Feb 2017, 10:47 pm   #28
Herald1360
Dekatron
 
Herald1360's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Leominster, Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,527
Default Re: Old sewing machine motor.

I'm a bit lost, now. Is the capacitor mounted in the machine at the motor or in the foot pedal?

If it's in the pedal, and there's an earth into there, the three terminal capacitor can be used, but if it's in the unearthed machine at the motor it gets "interesting". The old capacitor markings suggest it's a delta type suppressor- line to neutral, line to earth and neutral to earth but the 4-wire connection as described would only make sense for a single capacitor line to neutral.

__________________
....__________
....|____||__|__\_____
.=.| _---\__|__|_---_|.
.........O..Chris....O
Herald1360 is offline  
Old 7th Feb 2017, 11:07 am   #29
Lucien Nunes
Rest in Peace
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 2,508
Default Re: Old sewing machine motor.

As I understand it:
* The suppressor is mounted on the motor with its metal case in connection with the motor frame
* It is a 5-terminal feedthrough type with L & N in, L & N out and its 'earth' connection via its metal case
* The supply cable is 2-core so there is no mains earth at the motor

This is quite a normal setup. Many universal motors in class II appliances are suppressed with a delta-cap, either 3- or 5- lead, such that the 'earth' terminal of the cap connects to the frame only and is not accessible from the outside world. The Y-caps L>frame and N>frame bypass common-mode interference that would occur due to winding-frame capacitance without need of a connection to mains earth.

It can be replaced with a 3-terminal version, where the L & N do not pass through the suppressor but are simply teed into the motor connections. The 3rd lead would connect to the motor frame as the case does now. The replacement should ideally have similar capacitance values to the failed device. Large filters with high-value Y-caps should not be used as this can raise the possible touch leakage, especially if the machine is not built to official class II standards.

Does it have the square-within-a-square symbol on the plate?

E2A: I have seen a couple of pics of the motor of a Pfaff 260, where it is enclosed in a plastic housing and has a double-insulated symbol. In this case I would not advise changing the cable to 3-core. The replacement suppressor must be fitted inside the plastic housing.

Last edited by Lucien Nunes; 7th Feb 2017 at 11:17 am.
Lucien Nunes is offline  
Old 7th Feb 2017, 11:52 am   #30
Station X
Moderator
 
Station X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Ipswich, Suffolk, IP4, UK.
Posts: 21,192
Default Re: Old sewing machine motor.

The cap values in the Maplin device aren't far off.

0.1uF replaces 0.07uF.
4700pF replaces 5000pF.
__________________
Graham. Forum Moderator

Reach for your meter before you reach for your soldering iron.
Station X is online now  
Old 7th Feb 2017, 1:35 pm   #31
Herald1360
Dekatron
 
Herald1360's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Leominster, Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,527
Default Re: Old sewing machine motor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucien Nunes View Post

As I understand it:
* The suppressor is mounted on the motor with its metal case in connection with the motor frame
* It is a 5-terminal feedthrough type with L & N in, L & N out and its 'earth' connection via its metal case
* The supply cable is 2-core so there is no mains earth at the motor



Got it now!
__________________
....__________
....|____||__|__\_____
.=.| _---\__|__|_---_|.
.........O..Chris....O
Herald1360 is offline  
Old 7th Feb 2017, 9:27 pm   #32
amar56891
Retired Dormant Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 15
Default Re: Old sewing machine motor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucien Nunes View Post
As I understand it:
* The suppressor is mounted on the motor with its metal case in connection with the motor frame
* It is a 5-terminal feedthrough type with L & N in, L & N out and its 'earth' connection via its metal case
* The supply cable is 2-core so there is no mains earth at the motor

This is quite a normal setup. Many universal motors in class II appliances are suppressed with a delta-cap, either 3- or 5- lead, such that the 'earth' terminal of the cap connects to the frame only and is not accessible from the outside world. The Y-caps L>frame and N>frame bypass common-mode interference that would occur due to winding-frame capacitance without need of a connection to mains earth.

It can be replaced with a 3-terminal version, where the L & N do not pass through the suppressor but are simply teed into the motor connections. The 3rd lead would connect to the motor frame as the case does now. The replacement should ideally have similar capacitance values to the failed device. Large filters with high-value Y-caps should not be used as this can raise the possible touch leakage, especially if the machine is not built to official class II standards.

Does it have the square-within-a-square symbol on the plate?

E2A: I have seen a couple of pics of the motor of a Pfaff 260, where it is enclosed in a plastic housing and has a double-insulated symbol. In this case I would not advise changing the cable to 3-core. The replacement suppressor must be fitted inside the plastic housing.
Hi thanks, this is exactly how it is connected.
On which plate should I see if there is a square in a square symbol?
Also the suppressor is fitted inside a plastic housing on the back of the pfaff 260 motor.
amar56891 is offline  
Old 8th Feb 2017, 1:12 am   #33
McMurdo
Dekatron
 
McMurdo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Staffordshire Moorlands, UK.
Posts: 5,263
Default Re: Old sewing machine motor.

The pfaff motor is double insulated. (pic off google!). The hoover junior uses a similar setup. They also go bang.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	260.jpg
Views:	280
Size:	133.2 KB
ID:	137204  
__________________
Kevin
McMurdo is offline  
Old 8th Feb 2017, 8:03 pm   #34
amar56891
Retired Dormant Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 15
Default Re: Old sewing machine motor.

thanks ive just checked mine and the metal plate is missing only 1 plate that says original pfaff on it
today I bought the suppressor from maplin and some new brushes hopefully I will open it up on weekend clean it up and hope for the best
amar56891 is offline  
Old 8th Feb 2017, 10:42 pm   #35
Herald1360
Dekatron
 
Herald1360's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Leominster, Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,527
Default Re: Old sewing machine motor.

Still a fair amount of Pfaffing about to do, then........

__________________
....__________
....|____||__|__\_____
.=.| _---\__|__|_---_|.
.........O..Chris....O
Herald1360 is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2017, 10:41 am   #36
amar56891
Retired Dormant Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 15
Default Re: Old sewing machine motor.

Thank you all for the help all cleaned up new brishes and a maplin suppressor all seems to work ok
amar56891 is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2017, 12:48 pm   #37
Herald1360
Dekatron
 
Herald1360's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Leominster, Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,527
Default Re: Old sewing machine motor.



Thanks for feedback.
__________________
....__________
....|____||__|__\_____
.=.| _---\__|__|_---_|.
.........O..Chris....O
Herald1360 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 9:35 pm.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2023, Paul Stenning.