Should inexperienced members be encouraged to work on mains powered equipment?

[Diabolical Artificer]

(I'm going to get gyp for this) Sorry I don't think mains electricity is that dangerous ( for a healthy individual), I've had countless shocks from it and survived. I mis-learnt about electricity as a teenager. One of the daft things I built was one of those bent wires where you have to get a loop over and a bell rings if you touch it, but mine was wired to the main's, so gave you a belt instead.

I was 14, it 1978, kids did stuff like that. From what I've read most members were mucking about with potentially lethal radio's and TV's at young ages. you get a few shocks, you learn.

The OP that started this thread has advice, he's not daft, he'll be fine. No problem.

Andy.

[suebutcher]

I've approached valve radios and televisions from the opposite direction - twenty years ago I was terrified of touching them! I've always been very cautious around HT; having had a couple of teeth-rattling "belts" from mains-powered transistor equipment in my teens, and witnessing one spectacular power capacitor explosion, I assumed that HT was much more painful and dangerous.

[julie_m]

During my university years, when I took in repairs to supplement my meagre student grant, I politely declined any number of easy and lucrative TV repairs (£10 for a pattern LOPT and a new BU208) for a phobia about live chassis and EHT; no doubt stoked by horror stories of fatalities and near-misses to contemporaries of my dad, working on sets that probably used a mains transformer EHT supply, rather than an inherently energy-limited supply from the LOPT.

First proper job in the electronics industry involved working on gas ignition controls .....

[camtechman]

When I was 9 years old and with a curious mind I wondered if a sixpence in could conduct electricity.

So, one day whilst sitting next to a 2 bar electric fire, the type with a rudimentary and easily removable wire guard, I touched one of the glowing heating elements with the said coin.

The resulting bump on the back of my head, caused by being thrown backwards and hitting the butler sink confirmed that the sixpence did in fact conduct 240V AC !!!

[Kevin Hoyland]

Hello, I've been reading the thread with interest. I feel the points David and Lawrence make plus all the other positive comments from members show the willingness of members to pass on their skills is outstanding.
As for attracting new members, it makes me realise the need for workshop days to be facilitated around the UK.
I realise this will not be an easy task as it will involve a lot of hard work, organising, coordinating and dedication. We already have people who work their socks off for us on our behalf of the forum such as; Mike Barker, Paul Stenning and many others. So I am more than sure if we had workshops, we would attract a lot more people to become involved in the restoration and preservation of our vintage radios.
I for one am self taught and would be willing to pass on my skills and knowledge to others in the South Yorkshire area. If we all pull together and work together, I feel we could have a bright future in repairing vintage radios.
Please don't be offended if I have not mentioned your name for all the hard work you do for the forum.
Regards, Kevin.

[stevehertz]

A thousand and one views, most of them with valid points. Haven't we said it all on this thread now?

[julie_m]

Kids have a double survival advantage: Their small physical size gives them a smaller capacitance to Earth, which naturally limits the current available from a mains or pulsed EHT shock, on top of their hearts still being young and strong.

I would never advocate deliberately setting out to get an electric shock, but I'd guess more than a few of us here have picked up a belt at an early age that has served as a lesson how not to repeat the experience.

[lesmw0sec]

My earliest introduction to the hazards of electrickery was at the age of six when my mum found me sticking needles into some strange mains fuses on the supply which were porcelain and had around four ventilation holes. "Don't do that" said mother - "you could get a shock." Needless to say I continued and got a shock. Got no sympathy from mother though....
On the live chassis side, when I worked for Spark's Data sheets we supplied live chassis receiver kits for the beginner (cabinet not included). I don't recall any fatalities....

[Peter.N.]

I have been interested in electrics and radio - or rather obsessed by - since I was at primary school, in the early days I was afraid to touch the outside of a mains transformer in case I got a shock but after 50 years in the trade I got used to them.

I am not suggesting that there is no danger, there obviously is but as an earlier poster commented in my youth most people had a much more responsible attitude to life and therefore exercised caution with things that could obviously hurt you.

I wouldn't discourage anyone who is seriously interested in electronics to refrain from working on them but a good understanding of what electricity can do should make them cautious enough not to come to any harm. I would only advise those in poor health to be extra careful.

Peter

[Argus25]

I have attached an interesting paragraph, from the Andrea television company, 1939. It makes interesting reading. It related to their kitset 5" build your own television. The television contained the usual high voltage supplies, including a 2kV EHT supply for the CRT, which was derived from a mains power transformer.

In the current legal climate it would be very risky to sell such a kit.

Clearly at this point in history(1939) there was an assumption that people possessed some form of intelligence and better still, self responsibility. But at this point in time the litigation arm of the legal profession (LALP) was not as highly developed as it is today.

Over time the LALP fought hard to diminish the legal strength of such warnings & notices & disclaimers and instead focused on the notion of "duty of care" of another party, especially another party that carries insurance. This problem has been further aggravated by lack of taxpayer funded support for disabilities, so the private insurance sector has become the defacto guardian for this financial burden. This is why it is legislated in many countries that it is compulsory for professionals to carry indemnity insurance before they can legally work in their chosen fields.

The LALP have certainly achieved what they wanted, as evidenced by the fear and concerns noted in this thread, the fear of litigation and blame even when its just the usual kind help, that one person wants to offer another, on a technical matter.

From the legal perspective, it is as though everyone is assumed to be a moron, incapable of intelligent decision making or rational thought and possessing no self responsibility. Any problem must therefore be another(preferably insured) party's fault.

[ben]

I don't disagree with the overall point, that at the end of the day you have to be careful and responsible. The caveat is that I don't think we should be moralizing about peoples' stupidity, or nazi-style social darwinism, 'thinning out the gene pool' statements as others have mentioned on here, the idea being that mistakes should be paid for with the ultimate prioce of death. That I definitely do not agree with.

I also think that a text from a manufacturer, who is selling a product, is not a reliable indicator of much. Their position that you can just as easily be electrocuted by other things is beside the point: of course they're going to play down the danger or nobody would buy the kit!

It's based on a fallacy called 'Appeal to Biased Authority'. "In this sort of appeal, the authority is one who actually is knowledgeable on the matter, but one who may have professional or personal motivations that render his professional judgment suspect: for instance, "To determine whether fraternities are beneficial to this campus, we interviewed all the frat presidents." Or again, "To find out whether or not sludge-mining really is endangering the Tuskogee salamander's breeding grounds, we interviewed the owners of the sludge-mines, who declared there is no problem." Indeed, it is important to get "both viewpoints" on an argument, but basing a substantial part of your argument on a source that has personal, professional, or financial interests at stake may lead to biased arguments." source

Just my tuppence worth!

[Station X]

What a depressing thread.

It seems that before I can give a new member advice about repairing mains powered equipment, I have to assess their suitability for the task and all by reading their first post.

Then any advice I give has to be prefaced by three pages of safety warnings, a bit like the user manual for a domestic appliance.

Personally I think it's exceedingly unlikely that someone will receive a fatal electric shock whilst working on a vintage radio. A vintage TV with mains derived EHT is a different matter. I know my limits and wouldn't touch one of those.

What concerns me is that I could be sued by an ambulance chasing firm of lawyers engaged by a parent whose teenage offspring suffered Post Traumatic Stress Disorder after receiving a mild electric shock whilst working on a Dansette.

I won't even lend ladders to anyone anymore. The user might pitch them at the wrong angle or over reach, resulting in a fall. It wouldn't be their fault for being a moron. No it would be my fault for not exercising my duty of care and instructing them in the safe use of said ladder.

I'm getting on in years, so perhaps I'd better give up electrical repairs and concentrate on one of my other interests. Just a minute though - machine tools have exposed rotating parts, milling cutters, lathe tools and drill bits are sharp. Plenty of scope for injury there. Who knows whether the fumes coming off from hot cutting oil are harmful or carcinogenic?

Best I just watch day time TV where programmes are segmented by adverts from personal injury lawyers. "I was given the wrong ladder......".

[HamishBoxer]

There is plenty of sound good advice and note that is what it is "advice" on Paul's website re restoration. If you get a belt and don't follow it then don't try and blame others. If you are that wary than don't touch sets at all or only under supervision.

At the end of the day a lot is common sense and respect, a bit like my chainsaw I have used for the last thirty years.Though with electricity of course you don't see it till it bites. Also working with one hand behind your back on anything connected to the mains. Plus a mains isolation transformer makes sense.

No,we don't want Graham watching daytime TV!

[ms660]

"What a depressing thread"

Just a little.

I'm going to rig out my slippers with hazard warning lights.

Lawrence.

[DaveVoorhis]

Originally Posted by Station X

What concerns me is that I could be sued by an ambulance chasing firm of lawyers engaged by a parent whose teenage offspring suffered Post Traumatic Stress Disorder after receiving a mild electric shock whilst working on a Dansette.

I'd wager the chance of being successfully sued into financial oblivion is about equal to the chance of being electrocuted whilst working on an old radio, and both are probably roughly equal to the chances of having your house collapse and kill you in your bed. Much, much, much, much more likely is to die of a heart attack or a car crash.

A downside of pervasive news media is that we're fed a steady diet of ludicrously improbable risks that come true -- because their stories are perversely irresistible and thus help sell newspapers and website click-throughs -- but are so unlikely that they really aren't "risks" at all: They're bizarre one-off incidents that happen to the terminally unlucky, and are rare enough to be newsworthy. The thousands of people who die every day from heart attacks and car crashes aren't newsworthy because they happen all the time. That's what we should worry about, if we're going to worry about anything.

In other words, there are a lot more risky and dangerous things to worry about than noobs fixing old radios, or a greedy lawyer suing us for encouraging noobs to fix old radios.

[stevehertz]

The bottom line is, there ARE those, or whose relatives, will press for damages in the event of a bad accident or god forbid, a fatality. It doesn't matter how well meaning we all are, how much common sense should prevail etc etc, sadly that is the case. And that's from me, someone more on the side of 'liberalness' and the belief that we should freely give well meant information.

[Croozer]

I wouldn't go so far as to say depressing; at least there is space to have a balanced discussion. The issue is not, apparently a new one.

I attach a link to the Sept. 1943 edition of Practical Wireless. Almost all of its first page editorial item was provoked because of the then unusual circumstance that during the previous month newspapers reported two deaths through 'misadventure by wireless' .

Given the other attendant dangers of the period, (consider also the context. The same magazine also reccommended charging accumulators over DC mains with a light bulb! ) the discussion is remarkably similar to that that has just taken place here.

Link for those interested :

http://www.americanradiohistory.com/...PW-1943-09.pdf

PS Quite off topic, but that edition also carried one of the best explanations of FM radio that I have come across

[dave walsh]

Posts 55-57 go to the nub of the issue in many ways. It's not about discouraging people and I'm not sure that comparisons with previous times or different tutorial approaches help that much. It may even just boil down to attitudes and expectation plus the retro boom which is SO heavily skewed towards record players I note. As others have pointed out out, there is a much bigger disconnect between general knowledge and skills [now and then] in society' There seems to be much less "common sense", higher expectations and lack of restraint more generally now [no I'm not an old fogey]. By and large the current situation didn't exist a decade ago and wasn't expected to as new members understood the process and gradually worked their way in. It's a bit similar to pub culture is [or as it used to be] in a way. No matter how friendly and open you are, you don't assume a higher profile too early.

As for the risk factor, yes living itself is risky but on that basis there is no need to add to to it unecessarily. Maybe people were also a bit naive, uninformed and suffered the consequences half a century ago but you can't really use that as a comparator. One viewing of 24 Hours in A+E will demonstrate that even really quite old people do daft things like skate boarding at 2-30 in the morning etc these days. At one time the aim was to always try to present yourself as mature if possible. Now it's a race to the bottom and this attitude influences everything... arguably increasing risk!

The key factor in my view though [so far not really mentioned] is supporting the site owner. He has done a fantastic job in devising and creating this Forum out of his own personal and financial resources. If we were all paying he'd be an Internet celebrity! He wants better standards maintained and is noticeably risk averse [ie the strict auction house rules based on a bad outcome] but that's understandable as he's at the top of the Pyramid with all the responsibility and has other things to deal with as well eg life, work etc.

What I mean is that it's in everyone's interest but particularly his, for nothing to go badly wrong. We need to support new people but not duck the need to point things out that might be uncomfortable [as your best friend or a parent might do]. The rest is all a matter of adjustment and judgement. If people walk away from well mannered concerns it's unfortunate but there is nothing to be done. I donm't think it's fair for anyone on the Forum to have to carry the stress that comes with a lot of anxiety but very little control or actual knowledge of the situation you've been invited to deal with and have responded.

This is a peripheral final point perhaps but I was sorry to see that the owner is still being hassled by people who assume he represents the BVWS when his site is entirely separate and privately owned. I was on the Forum for a considerable time before I "joined in" [as it were] and even then it was sometime later when I realised that there was this "separation of powers". It may in fact though, be somewhat unavoidable in a way, as the owner also gives the BVWS great support in so many ways, is often linked in or mentioned via site BVWS activities and [I suspect this may be a strong factor] new members may come to the Forum via the BVWS link in the first place-as I did! Would it not be possible to take the pressure off by have a banner at the front page that would make the position entirely clear from the start or am I being naive myself with that suggestion

Dave W

[Argus25]

Originally Posted by Station X

What a depressing thread.

Best I just watch day time TV where programmes are segmented by adverts from personal injury lawyers. "I was given the wrong ladder......".

Don't let this get to you. I agree with other posts that the overall probability of trouble is remote. Part of it is the fear amplified by the crazy cases we see successfully litigated that are drawn to attention by the media. For example at any one time in any international airport there are about 5 or 10 doctors there at least. At one stage before the "good samaritan" laws were in place if the airport staff called for a doctor over the PA, they would be lucky if even one came to help out through fear of litigation which is a shame.

Sometimes the shoe is on the other foot, this happened in a courtroom where a lawyer was questioning a doctor (a pathologist) about a case:

Now doctor, you certified that Mr. Brown was dead, but what steps did you take to determine that, did you check his pulse ? "No" replies the doctor. Did you check if Mr Brown was breathing ? "No" replies the doctor. Well if you did not check Mr Brown's vital signs, how can you in fact be sure he was deceased? The doctor replies: "because his brain was in a jar on my desk".
At this point the lawyer, exasperated, asks: Notwithstanding the fact that some, or all, of Mr Brown's brain was in a jar on your desk, is there any conceivable chance that Mr Brown could still have been alive? The doctor replies: "yes, in fact he could, he could be alive and well and practicing law"

[ben]

Originally Posted by HamishBoxer

At the end of the day a lot is common sense and respect, a bit like my chainsaw I have used for the last thirty years.Though with electricity of course you don't see it till it bites.

Not trying to be argumentative, but I cannot let that one go by either! Alarm bells start ringing when I hear people use the phrase 'common sense', as in 'some vague notion of obviousness not supported by reason or evidence'. That is yet another fallacy!

One person's idea of what is sensible may not (and frequently doesn't, in my experience) coincide with another's. We should be wary of using that terminology.