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Vintage Audio (record players, hi-fi etc) Amplifiers, speakers, gramophones and other audio equipment. |
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14th Feb 2017, 9:22 pm | #1 |
Heptode
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PYE BLACK BOX preferred version?
Thinking about the many versions of THE PYE BLACK BOX (mono original shape) is there a one definitive best version of this model or is it a matter of purely personal choice?
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14th Feb 2017, 10:14 pm | #2 |
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Re: PYE BLACK BOX preferred version
IMHO personal choice and what you have in front of you!
And over the years I have almost every variant Cheers Mike T
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15th Feb 2017, 2:09 am | #3 |
Heptode
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Re: PYE BLACK BOX preferred version
I really like the sound of that first version, the BBH Mark 1. It's not really hi-fi, but it has a pleasantly smooth tone that makes well-used mono records sound good. However I haven't had the opportunity to compare it with the later versions.
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15th Feb 2017, 10:32 am | #4 |
Nonode
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Re: PYE BLACK BOX preferred version
Well I guess that the classic Black Box is the original black one with the Chinoiserie coloured enamel designs. I lust after a good specimen of that model!
Martin
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15th Feb 2017, 10:55 am | #5 |
Dekatron
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Re: PYE BLACK BOX preferred version
Not sure about that, Martin. I thought the standard and Chinoiserie models came out at the same time.
The most common machine has a UA6 autochanger and is known as the BBH. With Chinoiserie finish, it's the BBHC. With Collaro single-play deck, it becomes the BBHS or BBHCS respectively. And then there's the optional FM tuner plinth (BBF), of course: http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/pye_bla...tuner_bbf.html |
15th Feb 2017, 11:37 am | #6 |
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Re: PYE BLACK BOX preferred version
In theory the later valve BBA version (PCL83s) will sound better as it has a more power, better tone controls, higher sensitivity and 4 speakers.
To my ears the BBH has a real "triodey", warm, period sound and there's a sentimental attraction as I saw them being made in Lowestoft. Even so, I have a BBA with a re-built amp and I fitted a Garrard AT6 with a stereo-compatible cartridge - it really sounds great!
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15th Feb 2017, 2:21 pm | #7 |
Octode
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Re: PYE BLACK BOX preferred version
Slightly heretical but 'Gramophone' magazine rated the transistor BB 1004 as the best self-contained record player that they had heard!
Having heard the BBH, BBA & 1004 I probably do agree that it sounded the best overall of the actual machines I heard. However I'm still very happy with my BBH Mkii One of the problems of making these judgements now is that most cartridges will have been replaced with substitutes. |
15th Feb 2017, 3:05 pm | #8 |
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Re: PYE BLACK BOX preferred version
A lot of work went into the design of the Pye 1004 amplfier unit, with those old germanium transistors (7 of 'em) made just up the road in Newmarket.
I could never understand why those small Philips elliptical (albeit twin coned) speakers were fitted when there was plenty of room for larger ones. They did not do the amp justice and one of the first examples of Philips' early influence on Pye in early 1964.
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15th Feb 2017, 5:55 pm | #9 | |
Nonode
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Re: PYE BLACK BOX preferred version
Quote:
I believe that one of the secrets of the Black Box is its design concept of sideways-firing speakers. Place it in a corner and you get the dual benefit of well-diffused sound and bass reinforcement from room resonances. Martin
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15th Feb 2017, 6:12 pm | #10 |
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Re: PYE BLACK BOX preferred version
I too prefer the PCL83 version and from a servicing point of view a little easier than the earlier version, but again watch out for O/C O/P transformers.
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16th Feb 2017, 9:28 am | #11 |
Heptode
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Re: PYE BLACK BOX preferred version
Having listened to them all must admit the overall sound on the 1004 transistor version takes some beating and that is surprising with what was the possibly the original BSR TC8 cartridge. I know I should be opting for one of the valve versions.
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24th Feb 2017, 5:13 pm | #12 |
Heptode
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Re: PYE BLACK BOX preferred version
Just wondering if anyone could link me to that 'Gramophone' article on the BB1004 if it can be viewed on-line. Thanks
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25th Feb 2017, 8:34 am | #13 |
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Re: PYE BLACK BOX preferred version?
I think it says a lot about this range of players that by the time Ekcoman's example was made, a badge reading 'Black Box' was presumably more impressive than one reading 'Hi Fi'.
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25th Feb 2017, 10:04 am | #14 |
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Re: PYE BLACK BOX preferred version?
The rationale for the "Hi Fi" badge was that by 1954 there was not much in the way of an affordable, easy to use, compact, good quality record player in the average home.
The usual facility being an aging 78 rpm only Radiogram. Given the limited options at that the time, Pye felt they could get away with that descriptor. It also appeased C. O. Stanley as the rest of Pye's Hi Fi range was very expensive. And he had one in his Mansion!
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25th Feb 2017, 10:25 am | #15 |
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Re: PYE BLACK BOX preferred version?
The G63!
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25th Feb 2017, 10:33 am | #16 |
Heptode
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Re: PYE BLACK BOX preferred version?
I have both the valve and transistor versions, I prefer the earlier valve one with it's warmer sound. With vintage equipment it's the quality of how it's put together and look that also gives it more appeal.
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6th Mar 2017, 3:34 am | #17 | |
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Re: PYE BLACK BOX preferred version?
Quote:
That might explain why Pye chose to use a triode-connected EL42 push-pull pair in the original Black Box BBH model. Until 1954 of thereabouts, there was a prevailing view that triodes, or triode-connected tetrodes/pentodes were much preferable to tetrodes/pentodes for really high quality work. Thus the choice of triode-connected output valves may have been seen as a prerequisite for, at or least being consistent with the “hi-fi” label. On the other hand tetrodes/pentodes were acceptable for regular domestic receiving equipment. Pye also chose triode-connected KT66s for its more-or-less contemporary PF91 hi-fi amplifier, and a little later triode-connected EL90s for its HF5/8 amplifier. On the other hand, its PE80 and FenMan II radio receivers had respectively pentode-connected EL41s and pentode-connected EL84s. So it looked as if Pye was making a consistent distinction between hi-fi audio and domestic radio receivers. That said, the rather large radiogram versions, PE80RG and FenMan II RG, may have had reasonably well-loaded speaker systems that nudged them towards same quality rung upon which sat the Black Box, so perhaps they were borderline cases. 1954 though was the year in which the Blumlein form of distributed load (ultralinear, UL) output connection arrived in the UK, and I think that the UK release of the Leak TL10 just preceded that of the Black Box BBH. Thereafter UL quickly established itself as the norm for hi-fi equipment. Thus the Pye PF91 morphed into the UL-connected HF25, in 1955, I think. And the BBH Mk II had UL-connected EL42s. I don’t think that the HF5/8 was ever updated though. As best I can work out, it was intended to match the HFT111 radio tuner, which was essentially the RF/IF section of the FenMan II. Perhaps the need to change to UL was less compelling at this level. So in general, one may say that Pye followed the trend to UL output stages. Then it took a step off the beaten path with its Mozart HF10 amplifier, using not only a single-ended UL output with the EL34, but also using the Quad partial-cathode loading connection, which dated from 1945. This is pertinent here, as I understand that the Super Black Box used what was essentially the Mozart circuit. Years ago I did read somewhere that the Mozart circuit came about because a Pye staffer involved in its design had previously worked for Quad. Whether this was apocryphal I don’t know. Pye’s use of the UL terminology in respect of the Mozart and Super Black Box was probably contrary to what its coiners, Hafler and Keroes intended, which was that it applied to their specific push-pull implementation of the Blumlein circuit (although I don’t think that they gave any recognition to Blumlein). But whatever the intent, UL soon became synonymous with distributed loading of any form. Quad did not much use the term. I haven’t seen it in any Quad literature, but it did appear in the Quad II entries in the Hi Fi Year Book, simply as “ultra-linear” in 1956 and as “original ultra-linear” thereafter. Returning to the Black Box, was there much audible difference between the original BBH with triode-connected EL42s, and the BBH Mk II with UL-connected EL42s? The putative extra power of the latter, 4 W, would likely have been advantageous. I haven’t see the power output of the original, but I’d guess around 2½ to 3 W. A power output oddity was that the BBH Mk II obtained 4 W from a pair of 6 W anode dissipation pentodes, whereas the BBA obtained 5 W from a pair of 5.4 W pentodes. It would appear that in the latter case, the PCL83 pentodes were pushed a bit harder than had been the EL42s. Cheers, |
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6th Mar 2017, 9:13 am | #18 |
Dekatron
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Re: PYE BLACK BOX preferred version?
Thanks for that very enlightening analysis, a very enjoyable read (as usual).
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6th Mar 2017, 12:20 pm | #19 |
Dekatron
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Re: PYE BLACK BOX preferred version?
Agreed, a super read, bringing back many memories for me. The Super Black Box, now extermely rare, employed many design innovations. it also used a Collaro autochanger as the current BSR and Garrard units just did not perform well enough in that enclosure.
Yes, in those days within Pye there was always quite a distinction between Hi Fi and volume produced Audio/Radiograms. The Hi Fi team were heard, but rarely seen! In the case of the PCL83s (TV valve stock of couse) being hard pushed, I think they were well within their operating parameters given that there were 3 stages of AF amplification (and then the Phase Spitter) to ensure adequate gain to push those little Pentodes.
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6th Mar 2017, 5:51 pm | #20 |
Heptode
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Re: PYE BLACK BOX preferred version?
My inherited UA6/valvey one has succumbed to the usual amp issues and needs a service, but when it was working, I don't think I'd ever heard good condition 78's sound so lovely. The UA6 is a bit of a tank though, but I suspect that was the best cost effective machine to use in the mid 50's as it wouldn't surprise me if the Garrards and Collaros were more expensive (I don't know though).
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