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Old 25th May 2017, 10:34 am   #41
Welsh Anorak
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Default Re: Videostar 3v30 restoration

Hi
I don't think you have lost the loading timing as you can easily see the guides not locating in their V-blocks if that's the case with consequent alignment issues which you don't have.
The two-pin plug on the head isn't used so don't worry!
I wonder if the capstan belt is OK? Obvious, I suppose but if it's slipping then this just might be a symptom. I would be very reluctant to adjust anything else as it's most likely to be an introduced fault. Even if it's a component failure unrelated to your repair, adjustment of presets won't sort it out.
Aligning the servos in these machines is a time consuming and fiddly job and you do need the correct equipment to get it anywhere near right.
Glyn
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Old 25th May 2017, 3:14 pm   #42
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Default Re: Videostar 3v30 restoration

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Originally Posted by See_Mos View Post
Is the owner called Gordon by any chance? I used to have a service cetre in Morley where I did warranty work for most of the big Japanese companies. I saw my first '3V00' hidden behind a curtain at the Harrogate HI-Fi show. It hadn't been released in the UK at the time and according to the JVC rep it was an NTSC version, though the mechanisms were the same.

It looks to me as if the tracking pulses are missing as mentioned in a previous post. Back tension is critical but with experience it can be judged by reducing the picture height, difficult on a flat screen TV, and watching the lines below the head switching point. If they are shifted left or right the tension is wrong.
Hi,

I just looked at the email he sent me from the hunt for the cassette bulb, the guy who served me at Cee Dees was a guy called David, if memory serves me, hair on sides and back (a nice shine on top), a wicked scene of humour and very very knowledgeable.

Regarding repairs. On the basis the AC head has loctite on the adjustments I'm pretty sure they were factory set to the correct alignment so I'm not going to touch those. This brings me onto tape alignment as the only way of adjusting the height of the tape past the AC head. Adjusting does affect the sound quality as well as the picture, its noticeable how "muffled" the sound gets when not in the correct position. I have returned the right hand tape path guide so the sound is not muffled on the basis that is the correct position. (picture still very bad)

I'm assuming you mean back tension as one or two things, the leather break around the LH spool or the capstan arm that moves into the position on the immediate left side when threading
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Old 25th May 2017, 3:24 pm   #43
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Default Re: Videostar 3v30 restoration

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Originally Posted by Welsh Anorak View Post
I don't think you have lost the loading timing as you can easily see the guides not locating in their V-blocks if that's the case with consequent alignment issues which you don't have.
The two-pin plug on the head isn't used so don't worry!
I wonder if the capstan belt is OK? Obvious, I suppose but if it's slipping then this just might be a symptom. I would be very reluctant to adjust anything else as it's most likely to be an introduced fault. Even if it's a component failure unrelated to your repair, adjustment of presets won't sort it out.
Aligning the servos in these machines is a time consuming and fiddly job and you do need the correct equipment to get it anywhere near right.
Hi Glyn

I've replaced all 6 belts, sadly this what caused the problem, who knew changing belts could be such a

For the last couple of days I have taken the deck apart more times that I can think of "trying" something or checking (and hoping) there is a plug that has worked its way lose.

I've even got the Avo out and checked the cabling is good, still drawing up blanks.

The Pulsing signal I agree is the problem as with the working video of the concert you can see the deck picking up the timing signal and clearing the picture.

I'm starting to think repair for this one is beyond my abilities and specialist equipment is needed.
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Old 25th May 2017, 3:49 pm   #44
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Default Re: Videostar 3v30 restoration

Hi
Firstly as you suspect the back tension is set by the small 'wraparound' brake that goes around the left hand spool carrier. It comes into use during play (and record) only as the tension arm presses against the tape just south of the erase head. If you ease this guide away from the tape during play the tape should become slack and you'll have a pretty awful picture.
Just for fun, why not change the capstan belt back for the old one? It's pretty unlikely to be the cause I admit, but a belt that's too tight might just have this effect. While you're at it, make sure the capstan is nice and free and the oil shield washer (top) is firmly down on the bearing. A little light oil (sewing machine, not 3 in 1 and DEFINITELY no WD40!) in the bearing won't do any harm if you haven't already done this.
Then I'm afraid you really do need a 'scope and manual to trace the control track pulses. But before you give up, a cheap second hand 'scope is all you need and I think you already have a manual. Spend some time looking at the circuit diagram and tracing the control track pulses and look into the servo loop. Daunting at first, I admit, but it will slowly become clear. And we're here to help!
A last though - it was mentioned before but do check the tracking control is not damaged. It can easily be knocked.
Glyn
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Old 25th May 2017, 5:03 pm   #45
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Default Re: Videostar 3v30 restoration

I've taken the deck up to CeeDees to see if he can work his magic. I've told him the story behind it and he asked if I checked the gear timing before replacing the loading assembly as it may not be wrapping round the head fully.

I got cussed for fiddling - fair one as I haven't a clue

One question why no WD40..? The reason I asked is yes I have used a "mini" squirt (just for a drop to come out the straw to top of the centre bottom/right of the loading gear (think its head drum servo?) It didn't sound, a grinding whirring noise
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Old 25th May 2017, 5:26 pm   #46
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Hi
Firstly as you suspect the back tension is set by the small 'wraparound' brake that goes around the left hand spool carrier. It comes into use during play (and record) only as the tension arm presses against the tape just south of the erase head. If you ease this guide away from the tape during play the tape should become slack and you'll have a pretty awful picture.
Just for fun, why not change the capstan belt back for the old one? It's pretty unlikely to be the cause I admit, but a belt that's too tight might just have this effect. While you're at it, make sure the capstan is nice and free and the oil shield washer (top) is firmly down on the bearing. A little light oil (sewing machine, not 3 in 1 and DEFINITELY no WD40!) in the bearing won't do any harm if you haven't already done this.
Then I'm afraid you really do need a 'scope and manual to trace the control track pulses. But before you give up, a cheap second hand 'scope is all you need and I think you already have a manual. Spend some time looking at the circuit diagram and tracing the control track pulses and look into the servo loop. Daunting at first, I admit, but it will slowly become clear. And we're here to help!
A last though - it was mentioned before but do check the tracking control is not damaged. It can easily be knocked.
Glyn
Thanks Glyn

I had changed all the main belt back for the old one in case it was an old belt - sadly no change.

I had to send the machine away It was getting a little neurotic about it - the fault is totally illogical - I've even checked the continuity of every wire. The engineer cringed when I told him I've twiddled with most the pots and I cant say I blame him

I have worked on many latter generation VHS which like everything, there is nothing really in there, apart from the a belt, path alignment, mode switch, optics checking there is really not a lot more to work on unless getting down to component level. Most the latter day VCRs are not as well built but are as reliable as their weakest part - tends to me the mode switch contacts oxidising or blown caps in the PSU.

I have toyed with getting a scope but I have never used one and wouldn't know what to do with it, what I'm looking for or looking at. As I'm only a hobbyist, I tend to work with my trusty multimeter, precision screw driver kit and bucket of common sense.
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Old 25th May 2017, 8:11 pm   #47
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Default Re: Videostar 3v30 restoration

Hi, from what you've posted, when the unit is in pause you got a basic still picture overlaid with white noise. This says that:
1. The drum speed is correct.
2 The basic tape path height set by the moving rollers is about right.

When in pause the tracking pulses aren't used, but when you go back to play they are. If they're missing, a well set up VCR could sometimes go for 2 mins or so in play before mistracking appeared.

The old trick used to be: set the tracking control for best picture, then adjust the tracking control until the picture started to 'snow'. At this point the video heads are reading the edges of the video track and the slightest deviation of tracking would show as an improvement or degradation of the picture.

I know this is a bit academic now as you've passed the job on, but please let us all know what the engineers findings are on the unit.

As an aside, in the day job I took apart a 25 year old mini hi-fi system just to clean the fluorescent display, it now shuts down as soon as I tap the side of it now. Don't be hard on yourself, it happens to us all! SJM.

Last edited by samjmann; 25th May 2017 at 8:13 pm. Reason: typo error
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Old 25th May 2017, 8:23 pm   #48
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Default Re: Videostar 3v30 restoration

WD40 is crap for anything like this the name says it all Water Dispersion40 it will drive out water but then it dries up leaving a sticky film that all sorts of stuff can stick too.
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Old 25th May 2017, 9:15 pm   #49
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Don't be hard on yourself, it happens to us all! SJM.
Thanks for the kind words. He said he'll have a look tomorrow and phone on Saturday so will report when I get it back. Believe you me I'd be only too keen to know what the problem is. I has to be something stupid (apart from near enough every pot now been twiddled).

I think I've done the right thing as "remote diagnostics" over the net can be just stabbing in the dark

All these frustrations are part of the learning curve. Although newer decks are maybe more reliable and better reproduction I feel the older kit is built to last.
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Old 25th May 2017, 9:18 pm   #50
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WD40 is crap for anything like this the name says it all Water Dispersion40 it will drive out water but then it dries up leaving a sticky film that all sorts of stuff can stick too.
I never thought of that, I was fearing that was the reason for the playback problems.
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Old 26th May 2017, 9:57 am   #51
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Default Re: Videostar 3v30 restoration

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As an aside, in the day job I took apart a 25 year old mini hi-fi system just to clean the fluorescent display, it now shuts down as soon as I tap the side of it now. Don't be hard on yourself, it happens to us all! SJM.
The pins on VFD's are made of a hard material, not sure if it's steel or not, and prone to dry joints. I had the same fault on my Sony mini Hi-Fi.

Back to the video, the fault, as described previously, is missing tracking pulses or servo lock. The tracking pulses are recorded right at the top edge of the tape. The first thing is to clean the very top and bottom of the control head with a cotton bud and isopropyl alcohol then using a dentist mirror and a torch check for wear and check the tape edge is not too low down or too high on the head which can be due to forwards or backwards tilting of the head.

If the tape is running true it could be dried out electrolytics anywhere in the head amplifier / servo loop, after all these machines are quite old.

By the way, the first video I saw wasn't hidden behind a curtain. I remembered that the Hi-Fi shows were scattered around the towns hotels mostly in the conference halls but also some of the bedrooms had all of the furniture removed and were used as demonstration and / or hospitality rooms so that would be where it was. There is a good description of VHS on Wikipedia and there is a picture of the first VHS, just like the one that I saw. As far as I remember all Ferguson machine were cosmetic variations of JVC machines.

Something else I just remembered - Scotch Tape, advertised as "guaranteed for life". No one said whose or what life! Heavy use could wear out the drum and control heads in a matter of months. In the end it became a joke when we could look at the drum and tell the customer whether they used mainly Scotch, or not. the lower drum has a fine machined finish which the tape polished away causing more drag and of course even more wear.

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Old 26th May 2017, 10:22 am   #52
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Default Re: Videostar 3v30 restoration

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I'm assuming you mean back tension as one or two things, the leather break around the LH spool or the capstan arm that moves into the position on the immediate left side when threading
Just re-read the posts and noticed the above. The tension band friction surface should be felt but I suppose it could look like leather when viewed edge on.
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Old 26th May 2017, 2:21 pm   #53
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Default Re: Videostar 3v30 restoration

I remember those 'skeleton' Scotch tapes - and the matt finish drum they left behind. Also we sold several new Hitachi machines which came back with complaints of poor definition and smeary colours. Change to Maxell or Memorex and all was well - and no doubt the heads lasted longer.
To go back to the machine - I hope your man manages to get it going again. I can see why he cringed, though - there are a lot of pots to twiddle! Full marks for owning up though - we've all had machines in that had been got at, but no mention from the customer. When challenged it was usually 'we took it to my uncle who knows all about videos but he hadn't got the time / couldn't get the parts but he said it was only a small thing'. Or else 'no-one's ever been inside it' - despite all the wrong screws fitted and bits hanging off!
The problem with WD40 is the residue and it certainly makes any rubber parts nice and slippy (!). We got to the point when we'd sniff the machine and if the tell tale smell was there hand it back.
Glyn
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Old 26th May 2017, 6:04 pm   #54
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Default Re: Videostar 3v30 restoration

I'll chase up the repair to see what's happening with the deck on Tuesday (Monday being Bank Holiday) I have full confidence in the guys at Cee Dee getting it going.

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To go back to the machine - I hope your man manages to get it going again. I can see why he cringed, though - there are a lot of pots to twiddle! Full marks for owning up though - we've all had machines in that had been got at, but no mention from the customer. When challenged it was usually 'we took it to my uncle who knows all about videos but he hadn't got the time / couldn't get the parts but he said it was only a small thing'. Or else 'no-one's ever been inside it' - despite all the wrong screws fitted and bits hanging off!
The problem with WD40 is the residue and it certainly makes any rubber parts nice and slippy (!). We got to the point when we'd sniff the machine and if the tell tale smell was there hand it back.
Yeah I get that with laptops, only when you you get inside the story is very different. Thanks for the update on WD40 - I really didn't think of the consequences. I thought (as you can guess). The bearing sounded like as rough as a dogs doodahs, it needs lubricating, also being non conductive I thought it would be the best lube to use.

To this day I really cant understand what I have done. A guess without looking is the loading guides were out of sync when I removed the loading gear to change the belt, therefore it not fully wrapping the head. I don't want to be a pest but I'm desperate to know.

By the way guys, i have come across this a few days ago, not sure where I got it from..
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Old 30th May 2017, 10:33 am   #55
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Default Re: Videostar 3v30 restoration

Speaking to his assistant god knows what I've done to the deck as hes still looking at it (I get the impression a series of expletives have steadily flown from the workshop)

He's in at 2.30 pm so I'll retry calling then.
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Old 30th May 2017, 1:49 pm   #56
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Default Re: Videostar 3v30 restoration

If you haven't removed the loading block screws - just the circlip - the deck gears can't get out of time so they should be OK. In a way you hope it's a difficult fault so you know you haven't been caught out!
Back in the day we used to anchor the guides in stop mode with an old belt round the reel tables then remove the loading block to change the belt. It was easier that way and avoided the 'PING - where did that go?' scenario.
We're all interested to hear what the outcome is.
Glyn
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Old 30th May 2017, 2:29 pm   #57
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Default Re: Videostar 3v30 restoration

Iv'e been watching this post and the only time our apprentices screwed up was if they removed the loading motor bracket that operates the two large cog devices that operates the loading arms. It would cause the loading arms to travel up to the stops at different times. I used to retime them by wedging something against the back tension arm and then reposition the motor on its bracket and all would be well again. I never used to remove the bracket, just the motor, and then the two belts could be changed by gently forcing them over the nylon drive gears, looked brutal but at least the deck couldn't jump out of sync.
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Old 30th May 2017, 4:44 pm   #58
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Originally Posted by Welsh Anorak View Post
If you haven't removed the loading block screws - just the circlip - the deck gears can't get out of time so they should be OK. In a way you hope it's a difficult fault so you know you haven't been caught out!
Back in the day we used to anchor the guides in stop mode with an old belt round the reel tables then remove the loading block to change the belt. It was easier that way and avoided the 'PING - where did that go?' scenario.
We're all interested to hear what the outcome is.
Glyn
Nahh I took the whole assembly out, i took the attitude of "What do we have here", rather than trying to "control" the removal of a split pin.

I did manage to speak to the chap this afternoon and has managed to set all the pots to the right positions and he said the main capstone belt was deformed.

Hes got a good picture and sound on the recorder now but ever 8-10 seconds there is a interference line slowly working its way up the screen.
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Old 30th May 2017, 4:47 pm   #59
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Iv'e been watching this post and the only time our apprentices screwed up was if they removed the loading motor bracket that operates the two large cog devices that operates the loading arms. It would cause the loading arms to travel up to the stops at different times. I used to retime them by wedging something against the back tension arm and then reposition the motor on its bracket and all would be well again. I never used to remove the bracket, just the motor, and then the two belts could be changed by gently forcing them over the nylon drive gears, looked brutal but at least the deck couldn't jump out of sync.
I'll remind him tomorrow to check the timing of the loading arms. Thanks Tony.

Learning by my mistakes.
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Old 30th May 2017, 5:05 pm   #60
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Default Re: Videostar 3v30 restoration

Dave of Pudsey, now there's a name from the past, he will sort you, it sounds as if the control pulses are missing. I can't remember if its the drum or capstan that's controlled by the ctl pulses. But i'm sure he will.
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