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Vintage Amateur and Military Radio Amateur/military receivers and transmitters, morse, and any other related vintage comms equipment.

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Old 10th Apr 2017, 1:58 pm   #21
Arqiva BOC
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Default Re: Morse key: new vs vintage

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Originally Posted by merlinmaxwell View Post
I learnt morse by using something like http://www.g4fon.net/CW%20Trainer.htm . 5 to 15 minutes a day at lunch break. Oddly I did it it improve my recognition of NDBs slow morse, it took a while to slow down!.

I use G4FON and the K7QO course. Both excellent. My own poor code is simply down to my own laxity! A colleague M1BBV decided to learn morse just three weeks ago, as something to do whilst waiting about to be loaded (hes a truck driver) and I suggested K7QO - hes now having regular QSOs at 8wpm!

Another vote from me for the WT8AMP key! I have one, plus a Kent, on the shack desk. Ive just started the move to paddles though, having picked up a Hi-Mound Manipulator at Blackpool yesterday (played with some excellent Begali's that were well out of my reach!)

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Originally Posted by merlinmaxwell View Post
And... I did know someone many years ago that could read RTTY in his head. I bet that took a while to master.
Used to know a chap could do this! I can just about recognise the RYRY reversals!
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Old 10th Apr 2017, 4:54 pm   #22
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Default Re: Morse key: new vs vintage

I went to evening classes, once a week. This was useless, I had forgotten all I learned in that time. I eventually was taught enough to pass the amateur test by an ex RAF pilot who was invalided out with a broken back. His morse was horrible. We did about 10 minutes each lunch time and it didn't take long.
I still cannot send properly since I twitch, giving an extra dot. I am learning to receive again using the G4FON trainer. The TV adverts are long enough to do one session.
Running at 15wpm with characters at 20wpm, its coming gently.
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Old 10th Apr 2017, 6:21 pm   #23
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Default Re: Morse key: new vs vintage

My comment on learning and hence on sending style is not to make the mistake of starting out working with time uniformly stretched out to get the wpm down.

It is easiest to learn hearing individual letters sent at fairly high speed, with gaps between to allow your brain to catch up. That way you get the sound of each letter as a single entity and not as a stream of dots and dashes. You speed up by shortening the gaps as your brain recognises them faster.

So the examples in an above link where not so good as they were just slowing the whole thing down.

I found the traditional straight key a bit hard (what with my dodgy wrist, arm etc.) but keen to avoid modern technology I moved rapidly on to using a "bug" which is the very ancient and entirely mechanical predecessor to the modern paddle system.
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Old 10th Apr 2017, 7:10 pm   #24
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Default Re: Morse key: new vs vintage

When I learned morse a weekly evening class ran at a local college but fortunately this was augmented by a local weekly RSGB slow morse transmission and a number of enthusiastic local class A amateurs who took it in turns to provide unofficial sessions on other nights. Thus it was possible to get an hour's receiving practice most evenings and, as with learning a foreign language, time spent every day sees faster progress than one big dollop once a week.

A common issue for learners is to progress steadily and then get 'stuck' at a point (or points) where there is seemingly no improvement in speed. It is important not get discouraged as after while the blockage clears and all of a sudden it will be found that receive speed has gone up a couple of words per minute.
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Old 10th Apr 2017, 9:51 pm   #25
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Default Re: Morse key: new vs vintage

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A common issue for learners is to progress steadily and then get 'stuck' at a point (or points) where there is seemingly no improvement in speed.
I found, as did others I know, that there are two points one 'sticks'. I stuck a short while at 10WPM, then after I passed my test, I stuck about 16WPM. I couldn't put my finger on it at first, but it was the point where some characters have to be 'carried'. Up to that point I found it possible to write it down all I received; after that point I suffered 'character lag'.

I was taught the code by the late G3ART, who was a Marconi Merchant Marine operator in 1917. When I joined the BBC I 'bribed' the ex-MRGC lads who had also joined up with pints of beer in exchange for twenty minutes' practice of an evening before we embarked upon the fleshpots of Evesham.

At Droitwich one of the SMEs had written a Morse program for the BBC micro and I got my speed up on quiet night-shifts before putting in for my test at Portpatrick. It was on the computer I appreciated the benefit of learning the characters at the correct speed (and so hearing them as a rhythm for what they were) with big gaps, gradually closing this gap up.

I'd 'dabbled' with sending before learning properly, having had one of those combined key-and-buzzer sets from Laskys or wherever that took a 'D'-Cell, as a kid. But, having no-one to tell me it was right or wrong, I had to judge for myself.

I used to have a 2-metre 'sched' with a bloke in East Kilbride back in '84, which really boosted my confidence.

Interest waxes and wanes, but I use an ex A.M. 'D'-key which has a nice feel to it and is well made. I used to have a Junker key which was a bit lighter, but also well made.

My favourite was a Marconi key we used at the Solway Radio Club, and which had an adjuster knob on top of the rectangular cover. I may have used a key like this to do my test on but can't really remember.
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Old 10th Apr 2017, 10:07 pm   #26
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Default Re: Morse key: new vs vintage

How does the K7QO course work? Unfortunately all I have is an Android tablet and I'll have to ask a friend to open the .iso file for me.

I might be dense but I still don't understand the logic behind the Koch/Farnsworth method.

Ok, I get it that bypassing the visualisation of sounds into written dits and dahs is the key to speed things up. But what I don't get is: how can you copy a sound into a letter if you don't have a chart with the dits and dahs? Not sure if I made myself clear.

Does the K7QO course work in a different way?
 
Old 10th Apr 2017, 10:45 pm   #27
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Default Re: Morse key: new vs vintage

Okay here is a link to the instructions on how the course works:

http://www.kkn.net/~k7qo/manual.pdf

I'll leave it to someone who is familiar with android tablet to explain how to deal with an iso.

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Old 11th Apr 2017, 7:05 am   #28
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Default Re: Morse key: new vs vintage

Welcome Ottavio and hope you soon get your M6 call.
It is always difficult knowing what to say about what key to choose and how to learn the code, and moreover WHY to learn it. I am somewhat biased as I have been using it on air for the past 45 years and use nothing else - it started with evening sessions at University by the G3KMI crowd and the test itself in the BBC studios at Southampton - and a straight key bought for 5 shillings in a junk shop in backstreet Southampton, long lost.

These days you don't have to learn the code to get the licence (and the 'morse appreciation' test done as part of the Foundation exam achieves nothing, that does not teach you the code). You learn it now to get on the air and have QSOs. You won't have many QSOs if you only get up to 10wpm, although some do try. Most QSOs are 20-25wpm, up to 30-35 in contests and dxpeditions, you HAVE to get up to that speed if you really want to use it - it sounds fast but you CAN do it and once you do you will find morse is a great way to have contacts on air. At that sort of speed though most will struggle with any form of straight key and is why most use a modern paddle and electronic keyer built into most rigs, or keyboard sent CW from contest software (which incidentally I DON'T use myself). Note, do NOT use a computer to receive morse, that is hopeless.

So it is difficult to recommend a straight key - you do need it at first while you are learning but will soon move to paddles so don't spend much on one. Paddles themselves are not cheap but I won't discuss it now, not until you have reached that 20wpm...

Welcome to the magical world of morse.

73 Dave G3YMC
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 9:53 am   #29
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Default Re: Morse key: new vs vintage

So while dsergeant and myself don't use contest software to send CW I am afraid to say that most people do, and send stupidly fast as a result. They also cheat by not sending real signal reports.

I think one of the speed barriers is where you transition from writing down letters as they arrive to buffering them in your head. I never managed to do that, probably because of being a late starter.

Once you get some speed up you can try listening to the CW contests. Reading call-signs is one of the harder things as they are fairly random.

BTW I used the Koch method, and think it is a good one. This is as I said, where the letters themselves are always sent fast, so you learn the overall sound of the letters and don't try counting off the dots and dashes which is fatal. I found a web site that did it all server-side so no need of software installs.
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 10:02 am   #30
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Default Re: Morse key: new vs vintage

There's much to recommend the old Datong Morse Tutor, if you can find one. Small and portable. I lent mine to someone years ago, forgot to whom and never got it back!

Listening to contests, if you can, for an hour helps improve your speed no end. Most of the text is in a predictable format, and the callsigns are usually sent repeatedly. I used to be able to work contest stations at 30wpm for short periods, whereas I was never comfortable much above 20wpm in ordinary QSOs and rag-chews.
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 11:13 am   #31
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Default Re: Morse key: new vs vintage

My colleague the truck driver uses an app on his phone that sends simulated QSOs to you using your own call, so its just like copying your own live QSO. I've asked him to tell me what it's called,

After my own experience learning on a straight key, and seeing Bob's success in less than a month getting on air but going direct to a low cost dual paddle, I would recommend a new starter skip straight keys altogether!

Let the keyer help you form perfect characters, which is the hard part of using a straight key!

Above all, one thing I would wholy reccomend - just enjoy it! Only study it whilst you are enjoying the effort. And, as soon as you're up to any kind of usable speed, i.e. knowing the characters, numbers and basic prosigns, even if at just 5-8wpm - get on air and use it! You might find it tricky to find people who will slow down, but they are out there, and a few simple QSOs behind you and your confidence, and then naturally speed and ability, will improve
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 11:34 am   #32
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Default Re: Morse key: new vs vintage

As to Morse keys, by far the best one and nicest to us that I've come across are the keys made for the Czech army which came onto the market a few years ago. Never used, wrapped in greaseproof paper and a delight to use. I think Mike Bowthorpe who sold them must have sold all of them as the link to his site is no longer live. (The text on the key simply says send/receive in Czech).

The thread on that is here:

http://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/s...ad.php?t=64365

I was taught Morse by a kindly elderly amateur back in 1974 who said that if I spent an hour after work two nights a week with him, he'd have me through the 12 WPM test in three months, but if I missed a night, to not bother going back. All he asked in return was a trip to the Coastguard station when I took my test. Sure enough, three months later, off we went - in and out in ten minutes.

The problem I found, is that if you get a word in which a long letter is followed by several short ones, the whole word has gone while you're still trying to think what the letters were. EG, a word like 'feet': 'F' = di di dah dit, followed by two 'Es' = dit dit, followed by 'T' = dah. The on to the next word.

Most who can receive Morse - however slowly - will recognise certain terms however fast they are sent due to the rhythm. EG, I - and I'm sure many others who can read Morse - can read 'CQ', 'The', 'Hi' and '73' at 40 WPM - it's all the other words that I struggle with!
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 12:38 pm   #33
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Default Re: Morse key: new vs vintage

Best bent wire.
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 8:14 pm   #34
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Default Re: Morse key: new vs vintage

I never used anything other than a straight key. There were still plenty of good (well beyond rubber stamp) QSOs to be had and I had some really good rag-chews at the bottom end of 2m.*

*This was a long time ago...
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 10:03 pm   #35
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Default Re: Morse key: new vs vintage

In times past my late father was involved in training WT ops for a couple of sites in West Africa.

He always liked the "Candler" approach for receiving - where you were sent the individual characters at high speed (15WPM to start!) but with long 'thinking gaps' between the characters so you got to recognise the rhythm and cadence rather than counting-out the individual dots and dashes of a character.

For sending he had the ops learn on the keys they would be using in service - which meant a US military version of the Vibroplex Lightning-bug! Again, they learned to send each character fast, with a long inter-character 'thinking gap' - then progressively cut down the inter-character gap as their competence and speed improved.

Despite this, my late father always admitted to being a totally-useless manual-CW operator and was much happier hammering-out messages-to-home on a 5-bit BAUDOT-code tape punch, a technology which he used in the very-late-1940s to replace manual CW on the Africa-to-UK radio links.

I still like the underlying idea of learning-using-the-key-you-will-be-using-in-production-service.

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Old 11th Apr 2017, 11:06 pm   #36
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Default Re: Morse key: new vs vintage

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I would recommend a new starter skip straight keys altogether! Let the keyer help you form perfect characters, which is the hard part of using a straight key!
I don't think I'd go that far! A bit like learning to drive in a car with an automatic gearbox - a lot easier, but the key skill (pun intended!) is not learned at all. Not every station will have a bug or iambic key. It's also quite useful to be able to bash out a bit of Morse on whatever may be available, be it a car horn, Aldis lamp, whistle, piano keyboard or central heating pipe... or, indeed, a 'G2PBW key' (Get Two Pieces of Bent Wire) as in the following tale.

My Morse mentor G3LZT, now sadly a Silent Key, related a true story about being in QSO with a French station. After several overs of impeccable Morse from the French operator, his signal suddenly degenerated into an indecipherable jumble of dits and dahs. My friend sent "?" and waited, and after a short pause came back the slow, faltering reply: "I... HVE... BROKEN... MY... PADDLE... KEY..."
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 8:09 am   #37
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Default Re: Morse key: new vs vintage

The comparison with driving is a good one, but my point still stands - how many appaling drivers do you see who really should be in an automatic because they cant cope with the gears?

The whole point is to learn and get on the air and enjoy it. There are many appaling 'fists' on air from people who simply cant form characters properly on a straight key - but its what they learnt with and what they have. True, going straight to a paddle and keyer means you dont learn the skills needed for a straight key, but that can be done after youve got on air and gained operational proficiency. Plus, few people can attain anything close to 'conversational' speed on a straight key! This is amateur radio, not military operations - if your paddle goes south or the keyer locks up, its an inconvenience, thats all.

One big problem is the price differential - straight keys can be had from a few quid for a 2nd hand plastic special, or a few more for a nice WT8, up to the £50 mark or higher for a good solid, 'display' quality Kent or G4ZPY job, but paddles dont even start until around £30-40 for a chinese special or a 2nd hand Himound, up to the truly eye watering price of a top of range Begali or Vibroplex! Even the Kent single is just under the ton mark. Yet the engineering isnt much more complex than a pump

If there were a sensibly priced and effective range of keys - straight, single, double paddle, say around the £25-30 mark, then a new user could find what will be best for them initially, rather than be shoehorned into a straight key if its not suitable for them, due to budget.

I played with some beautiful Begali and Bencher paddles at Blackpool all with three figure prices! Morse should be the most accessible form of ham radio - its workable with such simple equipment, yet a good key thats not going to put a new op off can cost more than the rest of the station!

The paddle worked for my friend as a beginner (its the cheap chinese one off ebay for £35). It wont be the solution for everyone. But it should be an option at the start - just like learning in an automatic if for learner drivers

A more practical note though - whatever key you start with, it has to be stable, and adjustable. You will not enjoy it if you have to hold the thing down to stop it moving about the bench! My WT8 is mounted on a block of wood heavy enough to stop it moving. My new Himound is on marble but even then is still a little light (will add a slab of steel under it).

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Old 13th Apr 2017, 3:44 am   #38
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Default Re: Morse key: new vs vintage

Restoration73 said:

Quote:
Swedish (Pettersson, 1970's) key which cost me £0
Are you sure it's a "Petterson" key. I served as Sparks on an ex Maersk ship that had all "Pedersen" radio gear and lots of it - two radio shacks, the main one on the bridge deck in the centre section, a smaller one down in the aft section with just the same main transmitter and one receiver - and an emergency hand cranked 'transceiver' in each of the four lifeboats. But each radio station had the same key, no, not a Pedersen but an Amplidan - I bought one on our web auction site - and it's still a very nice key! I screwed it onto a large lump of schist - not so that it would stay still, but so that I could slide it out of the way on my small operating table!

...and he also said:

Quote:
I would suggest receiving is rather more difficult than sending for most novices.
Definitely. Which is why we were never allowed to touch a key until we recognised 'perfect' morse from a reperforator. Then, when we could receive at 15 or 16wpm we were allowed to start cultivating our sending style to match the 'perfect' style! Unfortunately if you have never heard perfect morse, how do you know what yours sounds like, especially if you only listen to your own 'fist' - of course it sounds perfect to your ears - you sent it!

Ultimately everyone develops their own fist. Our first instructor before we had the reperforator was an ex Portishead operator - he was very good and would send us paragraphs from the front page of the Daily Telegraph while rolling a smoke with his left hand - I recall that his name was Percy. In the second year we had another ex-coast station man who's name escapes me but he gave us a piece to send while he listed at his master station out in the front of the class. After we'd all done he exclaimed " but you all sound like Percy!!" That was when the reperforator appeared!
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Old 13th Apr 2017, 7:56 am   #39
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Default Re: Morse key: new vs vintage

Lennart Pettersson and company, Hoverberg Sweden stamped on the label. Wooden base, wooden knob, no biscuit.

The pivot for the beam is an E-haped flat piece of metal sheet. The outer limbs are clamped as flexures, the inner limb has a screw pressing down on it near the end so it works as an adjustable return spring.

Thw contacts are mounted on a steel leaf at the end of the beam so that beam motion stops with an amount of resilience.

The milled brass pieces have a trapezoidal theme to them.

There are other keys which share the combined flexure mount and spring idea along with the trapezoidal theme

Nato Stock Number 5805-99-580-8558 is the Royal Navy job in the big grey cover qith a large gap micrometer knob sticking out the top. It lacks the leaf mount for the contacts, so it's a little hard in action, but it's rather pleasant. It has one problem. With the steel cover on, the cover rings like a bell as you send and it's loud enough to be off-putting. I use mine with the cover off but I really ought to line its inside with some suitably claggy sound deadening stuff.

Another one was made in the 1980s by GW Keys. Mine has a linished brass finish on a large heavy slate base (Which tells you it was from the North of GW!) The knob-and-biscuit is low down and very close to the base which suits some people. It's a gorgeous looker, but it's very fast, it runs away with you. The flexure/spring is a bit too thick and I tend to set it up with a small gap and a fair bit of spring pressure in an attempt to counteract the non-linear feel of the spring which I find distracting. So although it's a nice key, it does duty as a paperweight on my desk at work. I use it occasionally for a bit of variety. And it also lacks the leaf-mounted contact arrangement.

I don't have a 'Swedish Key' They were a bit too expensive for me back in the day, but I really liked them whenever I got to use one. If they have a flaw, the wooden base is much too light. You need to bolt them down. They suit people who like the knob high above the desk.

What I most often use is my ex RAF 'TypeD' ground station key. This is a big WWII style brown bakelite box with a knob sticking out of a hole. It was intended for keying power feeds! The contacts are 10mm by 10mm lumps of silver alloy. The pivot is a tapered steel pin in a brass casting. The stationary part of the main contact is on a leaf. The feel is very nice indeed. Mine looks lived in, bits broken off the base, the ends of the tapered pin are rusty. "KEY MORSE TYPE D REF No 10F/7373" is written on the cover in best speak, military, shouting.

David

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Old 13th Apr 2017, 12:09 pm   #40
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Best bent wire.

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