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Vintage Television and Video Vintage television and video equipment, programmes, VCRs etc. |
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14th Sep 2017, 4:10 pm | #1 | |
Nonode
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Worcestershire, UK.
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EHT warm-up delay in pre-war sets
Quote:
Trouble is, it won't help in the case of the HMV 904 that's currently being restored on my bench. This is because the EHT transformer also supplies the heater feeds to the scan sections, among other things. We want the scans to warm up before applying EHT. Originally, the onset of EHT in this set was delayed by the warm-up of the heater of the U17 EHT rectifier valve. In this case though, the valve was dud and I didn't have another to hand. So it's been physically left in place (with new black EHT cable to anode) for appearance, but its work is actually now being done by an EHT stick below decks. Any bright ideas how I can incorporate EHT delay in this case, in a similar 'organic' way? Steve |
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14th Sep 2017, 4:19 pm | #2 |
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Re: EHT warm-up delay in pre-war sets
Could you put another eht rectifier valve in the lead to the tube with its under-run heater fed from a current shunt off the eht?
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14th Sep 2017, 4:21 pm | #3 |
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Re: EHT warm-up delay in pre-war sets
No, perhaps not.
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14th Sep 2017, 4:30 pm | #4 |
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Re: EHT warm-up delay in pre-war sets
Some reed relays are rated at a very high voltage. I have two inserts (the reed no coil) here (gifts from a relay manufacturer) rated 7kV, they are different, one at least will be 7kV. Yours for the asking Panrock. (drop a PM)
This time I have found the thing before offering it! |
14th Sep 2017, 4:33 pm | #5 |
Nonode
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Worcestershire, UK.
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Re: EHT warm-up delay in pre-war sets
I should mention the cathode bias on the KT41 sound output valve, (heater fed from the other transformer) is a little low for this purpose, at 4v. Just read merlinmaxwell's post above. This is a get-out-of-jail-free card. To say I am grateful is an understatement! Anyway, let's see what other bright ideas come up in this thread first.
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14th Sep 2017, 4:51 pm | #6 | |
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Re: EHT warm-up delay in pre-war sets
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14th Sep 2017, 5:08 pm | #7 |
Nonode
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Worcestershire, UK.
Posts: 2,525
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Re: EHT warm-up delay in pre-war sets
Yes, and it would have to be about 100 ohms. That's a lot of fine wire I may not have. I'd probably look into operating your relay some other way - or find a pre-wound coil.
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14th Sep 2017, 5:17 pm | #8 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Surrey, UK.
Posts: 4,385
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Re: EHT warm-up delay in pre-war sets
I'm sure that there will be 5V relays around with mains-rated contacts that might swing in with 4V on them, especially if a little driver saturation voltage lee-way had been allowed for.... There's usually documentation somewhere out there with minimum operating voltage quoted.
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14th Sep 2017, 5:24 pm | #9 |
Nonode
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Worcestershire, UK.
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Re: EHT warm-up delay in pre-war sets
The attraction of merlinmaxwell's reed relay is that it can actually switch at EHT voltages. Unfortunately mains switching of the EHT transformer input isn't an option here because a feed from this energises the timebase heaters.
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14th Sep 2017, 5:39 pm | #10 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Surrey, UK.
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Re: EHT warm-up delay in pre-war sets
Oh, yes- overlooked that, I get your drift now! It rings a bell now (from the days when supplier catalogues were within elbow-distance) that some offered curious long, thin encapsulated relays with exceptional voltage ratings- presumably they had these reed switches in them.
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14th Sep 2017, 5:45 pm | #11 |
Octode
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Co. Durham, UK.
Posts: 1,111
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Re: EHT warm-up delay in pre-war sets
Finding the right valve might be a better bet.
Otherwise adapting the circuit to use a more readily-available one might be possible. |
14th Sep 2017, 5:57 pm | #12 |
Nonode
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Worcestershire, UK.
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Re: EHT warm-up delay in pre-war sets
I'd be twitchy at trusting in the delay from the "correct valve" on its own, since its cathode is directly heated (the filament).
Even though the original designer did! |
14th Sep 2017, 6:13 pm | #13 |
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Re: EHT warm-up delay in pre-war sets
How about a simple timer on the CRT cathode to cut the beam off?
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14th Sep 2017, 6:40 pm | #14 |
Nonode
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Worcestershire, UK.
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Re: EHT warm-up delay in pre-war sets
Yes Sam, a possibility. The contacts though, I suspect, would still need to be EHT rated. A concern here is that the tube is cathode fed with video. Any additional capacitance here would be undesirable.
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14th Sep 2017, 7:18 pm | #15 | |
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Re: EHT warm-up delay in pre-war sets
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14th Sep 2017, 9:56 pm | #16 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Gateshead, Tyne and Wear, UK.
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Re: EHT warm-up delay in pre-war sets
Employ an ST&C DLS10 delay switch to hold the EHT off until all the timebase valves are fully warmed up.
Some time ago I modified an HMV 801 radiogram to employ a pair of triode connected KT66 tetrodes to replace the hard to find PX25 triodes. A DLS10 was used to delay the HT supply until the indirectly heated output valves had warmed up. The Marconi-Osram EHT rectifiers have directly heated cathodes. The Mazda U21 and U22 EHT rectifiers have slow warm up indirectly heated cathodes. http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_u17.html DFWB. |
14th Sep 2017, 10:32 pm | #17 | |
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Re: EHT warm-up delay in pre-war sets
Quote:
Yes the 904 issue is a different proposition to the KTE-5. I found two significant threats to the 904's CRT phosphor, especially in light of the fact that non aluminized crt's are very easy to burn. In the case of the 904, using a 5FP4 crt at least (I have never owned the 3/1) the problem occurred at turn off, or when the TV was running and then switching it to radio which causes scan collapse. It was less elegant leaving the scan stages running on switching to radio, but it protects the crt. The fixes I used are here: http://worldphaco.com/uploads/CONVER...A_5FP4_CRT.pdf (One circuit on pg 4 creates a negative pulse created by two exponential waves, to blank the CRT beam at turn off). Back to your issue with the stick rectifier instead of U17: I think you simply need to fit a U17 and you will get the normal EHT warm up delay, it is not worth risking damage to the CRT phosphor. Are U17's getting hard to get ? Then have a look out for those "turn off" or "change to radio" bright spot issues. That is a great looking chassis you have restored. |
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15th Sep 2017, 7:40 am | #18 |
Octode
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Falmouth, Cornwall, UK.
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Re: EHT warm-up delay in pre-war sets
Could you use a slow heating 6D3 in the CRT Grid, keeping the grid at chassis potential until the heaters have reached their correct temperatures.
__________________
Stephen _________"It`s only an old telly" ___ |
15th Sep 2017, 8:02 am | #19 |
Nonode
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Worcestershire, UK.
Posts: 2,525
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Re: EHT warm-up delay in pre-war sets
Thanks for all these ideas, which I am now studying! In the meantime beery has directed my attention to a good U17 for sale online, and I have now ordered this.
Steve |
15th Sep 2017, 10:33 am | #20 |
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Re: EHT warm-up delay in pre-war sets
Steve,
The HMV 904 certainly has some nice valves in it, including the U17. The valve that I think is the most interesting is the X41C, it is such a beautiful valve. While X41's appear easy to get, the "C" or ceramic base version they used is rarer. When I went looking for them I could only find two from UK suppliers, I have attached a photo. They are electrically, very much like an ECH35, except for the heater. Hugo |