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Old 20th Sep 2017, 3:17 pm   #1
Bookman
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Default Unknown Turntable

Can anyone put a label on this item which may look in a sorry state but it is mechanically sound. I have been told that it's a Voice of Music deck but their representative has never seen such a device.
I would love to get a manual that explains more about the geometrical device shown? Indeed, I have never come across the cartridge assembly shown so any feedback in that regard would be useful.
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Old 20th Sep 2017, 4:15 pm   #2
peter_sol
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Default Re: Unknown TurnTable

It says "His Masters Voice on it. HMV made by EMI their standard "C" cartridge not suitable for stereo records in any way.
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Old 20th Sep 2017, 4:16 pm   #3
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Default Re: Unknown TurnTable

The HMV 2126 appears to use the same pickup arm...might be a start for ID:

http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/hismasters_2126.html

EDIT: Post crossed.

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Old 20th Sep 2017, 4:16 pm   #4
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Default Re: Unknown TurnTable

It looks like an early autochanger.
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Old 20th Sep 2017, 4:20 pm   #5
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Default Re: Unknown TurnTable

3 speeds would seem to locate it early to mid '50s.
Pusher platform rather than umbrella release.
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Old 20th Sep 2017, 4:20 pm   #6
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Default Re: Unknown TurnTable

The deck is an EMI , and is found in His Master's Voice record players and radiograms from the 1950s. Not sure what is meant by "geometrical device", so an explanation of the workings may be needed. When a record is to be played, the record steadying arm (on the right, pointing towards the centre spindle) is lifted and swung to the right. The chromium plated device underneath is the size selector, and is marked 12", 10" and 7". in the photo, it is is the 12" position, so to select 10", it moves one click to the left, and for 7", two clicks, so that the longest "arm" is pointing at the centre spindle. The record(s) sit on this. Replace the steadying arm onto the stack of records. Next, for LPs and 45 singles, the cartridge is turned until the red 33/45 is visible through the little window in the chromium cartridge shield. For 78s, turn the cartridge until "78" is visible. Select the speed required with the left hand one of the two controls in front of the cartridge, and start the mechanism with the other one. After playing a stack of records, you have to remove the centre spindle before removing the stack of records, and if you want to play just one record, take the centre spindle out, place the record on the short stub, and lift the arm on to the record manually. The cartridge is known as the "Double C", and it's highly unlikely it will still be working. There used to be a modification kit available that replaced the current cartridge assembly, and utilised an EV Powerpoint, disposable cartridge, but sorry to say that has also been obsolete for about forty years. Hope this helps?

Barry

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Old 20th Sep 2017, 4:22 pm   #7
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Default Re: Unknown TurnTable

Quote:
Originally Posted by llama View Post
Pusher platform rather than umbrella release.
Not a pusher platform as such. When the records are loaded, the upper portion of the spindle revolves the whole stack, allowing the bottom one to fall.
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Old 20th Sep 2017, 4:52 pm   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio1950 View Post
There used to be a modification kit available that replaced the current cartridge assembly, and utilised an EV Powerpoint, disposable cartridge, but sorry to say that has also been obsolete for about forty years. Hope this helps?
Thanks Barry and indeed thanks to everyone else who have very kindly responded on the subject. I suppose I would need to try and undertake some form of mod using the same point of impact criteria if no stylus can be found. I can’t leave it as is?
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Old 20th Sep 2017, 4:52 pm   #9
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Default Re: Unknown TurnTable

I saw one of these in an early 50s HMV radiogram I found dumped on the pavement in the 1980s. The kind of thing with "big" valves (which I pulled and still have) rather than miniature ones.
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Old 20th Sep 2017, 5:16 pm   #10
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Default Re: Unknown TurnTable

It would be unusual to see any output from the Double C cartridge which probably dates from 1953 when EMI finally got around to issuing LP discs. It's quite a museum piece which even features in a record player shown on some Columbia 78 record covers!

Interestingly, the Double C has a quite chunky ceramic element rather than the common Rochelle Salt crystal. That, and its period construction held together with screws, makes it repairable with care. The failure is usually in the foil contacts which are rather ineffectively held in place with rubber pads. Surprisingly, I found it possible to solder (quickly!) thin connecting wires on to the copper plated ends of the ceramic. More information in this thread https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=136587.

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Old 20th Sep 2017, 5:20 pm   #11
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Default Re: Unknown TurnTable

Also used in the HMV 1621:

http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/hismast...gram_1621.html

Lawrence.

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Old 20th Sep 2017, 8:46 pm   #12
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Default Re: Unknown TurnTable

This would have to be a true labour of love to repair and find a working cartridge for. Even when restored it would be unsuitable for stereo LP pressings.
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Old 20th Sep 2017, 9:56 pm   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley118 View Post
Interestingly, the Double C has a quite chunky ceramic element rather than the common Rochelle Salt crystal. That, and its period construction held together with screws, makes it repairable with care. The failure is usually in the foil contacts which are rather ineffectively held in place with rubber pads. Surprisingly, I found it possible to solder (quickly!) thin connecting wires on to the copper plated ends of the ceramic. More information in this thread https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=136587.
Hi Martin,
Sorry to impose upon you and anyone else for that matter but it is possible that the cartridge may be beyond repair and as such an alternate solution may need to be considered.
Clearly, it is possible to use another type of cartridge by inverting it and to use normal connectors to link it to the tone arm. Similarly, there will be someway an adaptor can be developed for it to be positioned and secured accordingly; the shaded area per the attached sketch refers.
My problem however will be one of which cartridge to use and to be frank I am of the opinion that modernity would be determining factor for consideration in association with best size fits. Do you concur and if so can anyone point in the direction of simplifying selection criterion?
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Old 20th Sep 2017, 10:48 pm   #14
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Default Re: Unknown TurnTable

Hi Bookman,

Well, I guess that you may be able to adapt the arm along the lines of your sketch to take a currently available cartridge such as one of the red/black Chinese ceramic types - I find they give a pretty workmanlike performance that would be at least as good as the original Double C. It then depends on your mechanical engineering capabilities just what the end result looks like.

I also guess your decision depends on what you're aiming for from this deck and how much restoration you're interested in carrying out. I'd personally be inclined to get the autochanger working first - for example its rubber idler wheel may be perished and present as big a restoration challenge as the cartridge itself.

Martin
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Old 20th Sep 2017, 11:27 pm   #15
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Default Re: Unknown TurnTable

What do you intend to play on it? If 78s and only MONO lps/45s , have a go at repairing the original cartridge by replacing the foil connectors from the transducer elements, also check continuity from cartridge to amp - ther can be issues with the turnover mechanism causing poor coduction. If you want to play stereo records it is probably one of the worst decks you could use, the stylus is perpendicular to the record at only one height point, maybe OK for a single record player but not ideal for a changer, maybe you can get away with it on mono records, but not really suitable for a stereo changer. Also lots of friction as the arm moves across the record as a lot of the mechanism is built into the arm movement, have a look underneath. Nevertheless a very interesting and rare changer, idler wheel drive with speed selection by gears. The control at the rear left of the deck is to retract the idler wheel.
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Old 21st Sep 2017, 8:22 am   #16
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Default Re: Unknown TurnTable

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley118 View Post
Well, I guess that you may be able to adapt the arm along the lines of your sketch to take a currently available cartridge such as one of the red/black Chinese ceramic types - I find they give a pretty workmanlike performance that would be at least as good as the original Double C. It then depends on your mechanical engineering capabilities just what the end result looks like.
Thanks Martin, most appreciated.
I reckon I could fashion something that would hopefully be something better than fit for purpose (says he?). In terms of sound; issues such as this makes me think of Dr Edward De Bono and his lateral thinking comments. He wrote that if we want to lay a garage forecourt using a million interlocking bricks then if the first 2 we lay are incorrect that the installation can never be correct. Here I am referring to the signal that will be used to feed the amp which in turn has its own processes and then finally the reproduction.
I do however still pursue the philosophy of my county of birth (Yorkshire) by way of never spending a penny if a halfpenny will do but spend I will.
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Old 21st Sep 2017, 8:35 am   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electrogram View Post
What do you intend to play on it? If 78s and only MONO lps/45s , have a go at repairing the original cartridge by replacing the foil connectors from the transducer elements, also check continuity from cartridge to amp - ther can be issues with the turnover mechanism causing poor coduction. If you want to play stereo records it is probably one of the worst decks you could use, the stylus is perpendicular to the record at only one height point, maybe OK for a single record player but not ideal for a changer, maybe you can get away with it on mono records, but not really suitable for a stereo changer. Also lots of friction as the arm moves across the record as a lot of the mechanism is built into the arm movement, have a look underneath. Nevertheless a very interesting and rare changer, idler wheel drive with speed selection by gears. The control at the rear left of the deck is to retract the idler wheel.
Dear Electrogram
I can honestly say without any form of patronisation that this thread has provided for a seriously interesting and highly welcome array of responses that are neither opinionated or without substance. They are all factual and help significantly to allow readers to increase their knowledge base.
If one reads about Kingdom Brunell they will see how he would often put options forward for consideration which left others to decide the best way forward. In this it would always refer to preference and price.
In this case I would always want to play modern LPs (60s onwards) with the odd 45 thrown in (wifes). Given the cost of some of these the last thing I would want is any stylus providing a chisel effect on them.
Similarly, I once took a sabbatical for a couple of years into pneumatics and fluidics and always marvelled at the movement of parts rather than a motor turning or a breaker closing. Ergo, it would be nice to have a facility be it by selection or otherwise to see something doing its thing when switching it on in a way considered apt all those years ago.
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Old 21st Sep 2017, 10:15 am   #18
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Default Re: Unknown TurnTable

The chinese cartridges will track nicely at 5 grammes but anything less would be pushing it for a record changer of that vintage. Also the tracking weight would need to be set somehow.
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Old 26th Sep 2017, 6:18 pm   #19
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Well Guys,
The project has moved on but only marginally. I have manually turned the relevant radially operated components which suggests all may be okay in a way that would warrant further expenditure.
I would have provided two pics, one of the speed mechanism and one below the deck; a bit dirty but not too bad.
The complex issue however still revolves around the pick up assy. I have decided to update the item to allow modern stereo interoperability.
I have removed the relevant components but I am unable to assess how to remove the plastic encapsulated fixed connection on the tone arm; the blurred photo endeavours to show?
By my reckoning there could be an option of creating a stereo pick up assembly if one could purchase the collar arrangement as used on the Lenco decks. Here I have taken a photo of my GL75 to explain my reasoning?
All of the dimensions would seem the seem both in tone arm diameter and slip over sleeve that would contain the female socket of the mod.
In this I have shown a photo of the existing Double c holder to show how any female socket sleeve holder would fit?
The counter weight is rather heavy which would suggest an accurate measure of the mass of the existing cartridge assembly. The questions therefore I would suggest are:-
1. How does one safely remove the existing mono tone arm connection?
2. Can the female socket alluded to be bought?
3. Which sort of tone arm internal wiring looms are best suited.
4 Will the proposed assembly open up a new assessment of cartridge type bearing in mind its intended separate connection to a separate HiFi system.

Apologies for imposing myself upon the forum, I remain,

Forever thankful
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Old 26th Sep 2017, 9:25 pm   #20
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Default Re: Unknown TurnTable

I mentioned "a labour of love" earlier, but I did not envision you fitting another tone arm and using it with a hi fi system. I'm not sure how you might expect this to perform with the lateral fricton that will be imposed on a new tone arm and the rumble and flutter that the hi fi may well reveal....
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